Oral Histories
This collection consists of 11 hour-long video interviews with the following people: Ed Krumpe, Gary Koehler, Teresa Cohn, Jennifer Ladino, Lauren Fins (in Moscow , Idaho), Andrew Armstrong, Colden Baxter, Janet Devlieg, Grace Peven (at the TWRC), Jim and Holly Akenson (Enterprise, Oregon) and Maurice Hornocker (Belleview, Idaho) conducted between summer of 2022 and spring of 2023. The collection highlights particular elements of the oral histories to give readers a sense of the space in the Geographies section and visualizes the scholarly output of the institution in the Bibliometrics section.
Contents
Akenson_1
Jack Kredell: Because your names are synonymous almost with Taylor Ranch at this point. If you could just introduce yourself and talk about your affiliation or connection to Taylor.
Jim Akenson: Okay. You would go first time.
Holly Akenson: I'm Holly Ackenson, and we first went to Taylor Ranch in 1982, and Jim and I got married in 1978. And the time we got married, we said, you know, we're probably going to live somewhere where we don't have electricity. So we told people not to buy us any wedding gifts that were electric related, and we didn't know where we might end up.
Holly Akenson: But that was sort of what helped lead us to to Taylor Ranch and University of Idaho.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, my name is Jim Akenson and would concur with Holly's assessment There and add to it that we had some pretty desirable professional opportunities in 1982. I was finishing my Master's degree and was working for the Bureau of Land Management as a wilderness planner, and there was some good opportunities looming. But the thing that pulled us to Taylor Ranch was a combined opportunity, for one thing, something for both of us, Holly's wildlife background.
Jim Akenson: And at that time I wilderness management interests and background. But it was an adventure. And that was the bottom line. And I think that was the main thing. During our mid-twenties, what pulled us back there in 1982.
Jack Kredell: Just to give you a heads up, if I like, have an awkward pause after you finish talking, it's just that there's enough space there to cut and.
Jim Akenson: Have to be, you know. Yeah. Okay.
Jack Kredell: So let's see. At that time, this was 82.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: So was this a couple of years after the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness had been officially designated by Congress?
Jim Akenson: Well, it was in between two significant namings, basically, which was the river of No return wilderness is 1980. And then the Frank Church River No Return wilderness occurred in 1984, I believe. And so we were right in between those four year period. And I had it was transitioning to designated wilderness from being referred to as the Idaho primitive area.
Jim Akenson: And a lot of people, pilots and backcountry recreational this we're still referring to it as the primitive area. It was more commonly called that than the river of No return, and certainly not the Frank Church for no return at that time.
Jack Kredell: And what was what was Taylor's name? prior to that? But that name change from primitive to wilderness was.
Jim Akenson: Taylor Ranch, per say, well, under university ownership dating back to 1970, technically it was known as either Taylor Ranch Field Station, which was most of our time period there, or Taylor Ranch Research Station or Research Center. (indistinguishable).
Holly Akenson: I was thinking before, before Taylor was there was called the Lewis Place.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, in the thirties.
Holly Akenson: Lewis was the one that homesteaded. So the site is had different names but think still people often refer to it as Taylor Ranch. The university is more formalized in in name now with the research station part, but a lot of the local people still refer to it as Taylor Ranch.
Jim Akenson: Interestingly, it was referred to a lot as the ranch, and I know as our early years as manager. So we thought that needed a modification or something more specific.
Holly Akenson: Well, it was awkward because then we became the ranch managers, which we weren't really ranchers or managing a ranch. So that was a little confusing with the the management piece.
Jim Akenson: We cut for just a minute. I'm going to put both dogs in the house. Too distracting.
Jim Akenson: Dog disturbance. So one thing that I would say in those early years in, we had familiarity with the Hells Canyon Wilderness, the Eagle Camp Wilderness. And to me it just felt it seemed to be much more like an Alaskan wild place than either one of those wildernesses we were familiar with here. And a lot of that relates to the fact that it had a lot of aviation in it.
Jim Akenson: There's so many places that you could fly to and such a dependance for from a service perspective on the mail plane and that whole mail service. And to me, I really like that feel that it it was broader than just some ice glacier peak type wilderness or big canyon. It had a backcountry culture connected with it and that seemed very apparent right from the get go.
Holly Akenson: And the other thing is it it's such a large landscape that the wilderness itself in encompassed everything from alpine summer ranges for large mammals to the winter ranges, whereas most wilderness is only have part of the area that's used by large mammals. So that was really what I found fascinating. And, and we enjoyed living on Big Creek and working up and down the canyon, hiking and and knowing that what we saw was what was out there.
Holly Akenson: There were no other people disturbing animal movements or behaviors that was truly of large scale intact system.
Jack Kredell: Can you can you describe the geography of the site when you step out of the front door? What do you see?
Jim Akenson: Well, you're you're in the middle of a massive block of mountains, of Salmon River mountains, but you're also in a canyon environment. And to me, it just was so similar to Hells Canyon, except for obviously Big Creek, the side canyon in the middle for it, which is a side canyon to the Salmon River. I would say it's a river dominated landscape of riverine dominated landscapes.
Holly Akenson: And everything's uphill except when you go down Big Creek and often uphill in steep ways. So really provided with that quick relief of diversity of environments in a very short distance. Dave Lewis Peak was right behind Taylor Ranch and that was 9000.
Jim Akenson: 350
Holly Akenson: Yeah, and Taylor Ranch was around 3700 feet.
Jim Akenson: 3900? Yeah, almost close. Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Akenson: So lots of different elevation changes and the aspects were totally different. The drainage is the east west drainage and so the north facing slopes were forested primarily with Douglas fir, but also Ponderosa pine. The south facing slope for mostly open bunchgrass and some sagebrush. So again, tremendous diversity in environments in a very small scale area. And when your only mode of travel is hiking or riding a mule, you don't get very far away to to have this close environment.
Holly Akenson: That's one thing that's really different for us now here is just because you can get in a vehicle and drive in the area that's your local neighborhood is much bigger than a Taylor Ranch on Big Creek. We had a very small local neighborhood that we could access.
Jim Akenson: And I would say, again, stepping outside the cabin there. Taylor What do you feel? Well, one thing I would say is you feel that you are a small entity in a big environment in here. For instance, in this Wallowa valley, I don't get that feeling. It's like it's still even though there's great mountains like those behind us and a couple well, three wilderness areas nearby.
Jim Akenson: When I took in and helped Hells Canyon in the Eagle camp, I don't feel that. I feel that it's still kind of heavily influenced by man in the Frank Church. There's so much of that that is not influenced by man. So it's a different feel and it's a sensation, again, more like an Alaskan backcountry experience.
Jack Kredell: You guys missed that. That sensation.
Jim Akenson: yeah. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think about some aspect of Big Creek and Taylor Mountain, and I think that'll be the way it is for the rest of our lives. And I don't know, maybe you view it a little differently, but.
Holly Akenson: Yeah, I think that's one of the hardest things about leaving. They're leaving the backcountry in Idaho is that it's almost like a nature addiction that we just had such a strong desire to be in a natural environment, and that was difficult to leave that and being more of a rural environment, just the changing seasons and intimately knowing a small area in the wilderness and knowing what the seasons were going to be like and and what animals were there and what the plant phenology was going to be.
Holly Akenson: It was a very close connection to nature that is difficult to find in most environments.
Jim Akenson: And a close connection to the seasons. And seasons change, and that's something that I haven't felt as much here as we felt there. And, you know, I remember always looking forward to summer being over, even though from a job responsibility standpoint as manager scientists at Taylor Ranch, you know, that's where we did a lot a lot of what we did with students occurred in the summer, but it was just intensely hot.
Jim Akenson: Days were long and it was I don't know, there just wasn't as much peace and tranquility of mind as there was like, say, in the middle of winter or those shoulder seasons.
Holly Akenson: So I think that was part of the the fun of the diversity of seasons. It wasn't just the diverse seasons on the ground in nature, but also what our responsibilities were, whether it was our own research in the winter or intensive socializing in the summer with a lot of student programs going on each season, I think we look forward to for different reasons.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: So does that mean that you miss the days of removing ice from the water intake?
Jim Akenson: You know, that's just all part of the program. There was frustration associated with that day in and day out, rudimentary basics. But on the other hand, it also denoted self-reliance. That I think is sorely missed in today's culture that, yeah, well, we can fix that and go on with things. We've got other things to do. And you had to operate at a higher level of, again, self-reliance and capability to resolve situations.
Jim Akenson: And I do miss that. And it just was a little bit of a stepping back in time to Idaho Frontier Times, in a way. Although getting the mail flown in once a week sort of diminished that aspect. Then on the other hand, it was pretty nice too, because it kept us in touch and kept us supplied.
Holly Akenson: In those basic life chores just to make sure we had running water or our power really connected us with our backcountry community, which we really value to this day. Our backcountry community were other people who lived in similar places to Taylor Ranch, probably ten different backcountry ranches or facilities in the winter time expanded more to maybe 20 in the the summer time.
Holly Akenson: But we connected with those people and we helped each other. They helped us, we helped them. We maybe just talked to them on the radio, got advice, gave advice. But it was our connection with community because even though we were working for university of Idaho, our day to day relationships were with the people that were chopping the ice out of their water box.
Holly Akenson: The same day that we were. And so we may have had very different political views or educational backgrounds, but those were our friends and people that we really bonded with because we shared that lifestyle. And that was really special.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, whether it was forest fires and what the where they were going next or earthquakes. And did you feel that that was all communicated on this backcountry radio network and and that was the glue that pulled together our community and really our our culture and something that we're trying to capture now through possibly a book, at least an essay of people's backcountry radio experiences.
Jim Akenson: And we're communicating with several people who lived through a similar time period in the Idaho backcountry zones and and to tell some stories of interest from their backcountry radio events to capture that because it's it's it's already gone. It isn't what it used to be now that there's satellite Internet capability throughout the backcountry.
Holly Akenson: Yeah that that connection is missing. There are people on the main Salmon River still have it because they interact directly, but we were so far from our nearest winter neighbor was 21 miles away and they were actually on a different channel on the backcountry radio. So our relationships with people were totally tied with radio and not on the ground connections.
Holly Akenson: And the after the first period we were at Taylor Ranch, we did a big pack trip to leave Taylor rather than fly out with our stuff. We took our horses and mules and we made a 175 mile pack trip and we rode the whole backcountry and visited all these people, most of whom we'd never met. But we talked to them on the radio a lot, so we had relationships with them.
Holly Akenson: But we hadn't physically seen them or been to their places. So that was really a neat way to to leave the backcountry and connect with all of those people that had been an important part of our lives there.
Jim Akenson: And I guess to clarify on that, we had two tenures at Taylor Ranch. One was the first one was 1982 to 1990, and we were away from 1992 97. We went back in 97 and were there until 2010. So basically 21 years of full time residents there over 28 year period. And we saw a huge transition. In fact, that became, I guess, a fundamental theme in the book that we wrote titled 7003 Days in the Frank Church, where No Return Wilderness was the transition from the old ways of Idaho to basically the new ways which came about, I would say really distinctly in about the year 2000 coming forward.
Jim Akenson: So we, I would like to think had half of our time, maybe a hair more in old Idaho and then the other ten years were in what would be categorically New Idaho, which was I guess I won't say dominated by but influenced by electrification of Taylor Ranch Field Station and also Internet communication capability, which ultimately brought about kind of the demise of the backcountry Radio in that closeness of community, which we had felt during earlier times.
Holly Akenson: It also made it more difficult to focus students on the environment because they would have an opportunity to either be on the Internet or watch videos, whereas in our earlier tenure there was nothing to do but go fishing or read a book or go hiking. And so all of the extracurricular activities were still tied with getting out into the wilderness.
Holly Akenson: And so once we had that Internet access, we actually had to limit it to encourage students to continue to enjoy what was there in the in the wilderness and not focus on what they might be doing if they were in Moscow.
Jack Kredell: And talk about how that that old Idaho, in terms of the stuff, the backcountry community and backcountry knowledge helped enable a lot of the science that was done early on in Taylor.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, I guess in to get to the root of that, I think it's important to go to some of our initial contacts when we first went to Taylor Ranch in 1982, and then that being Maurice Hornocker and Ed Krumpe, who was our supervisor at the time, both those two felt it was important that we maintained horses and mules, for instance, to help facilitate the research and handle the logistics of the backcountry.
Jim Akenson: And the Maurice took it even deeper by suggesting that using those old ways helped with our acceptance in the backcountry that, you know, if we did things like pack mules and ultimately put up with a mule team, for instance, we were in we were we were part of that backcountry nucleus, which I think as time went on, we really not only embraced it, but saw the truth in it that that was really, I think, what gained us a lot of acceptance in the backcountry, not to mention the capability to put out fairly major wall tent camps to conduct wintertime cougar research and bobcat work and those sorts of things.
Jim Akenson: It it it was practical and it was philosophical. And it was also, I think, a testimony to living history. And in there, you know, and then Krumpe was very big in supporting that, you know, through the eighties with how we conducted how we did business there. And we built a barn, we put up hay with the mule team.
Jim Akenson: We brought in all our firewood with either mule power or human power in some cases. So it it was important. And I think that there still is that element there at Taylor Ranch in the Field Station, but it needs to be reinvigorated again. And it certainly can be. It's like your chairs falling.
Jack Kredell: And, you know, I love that scene in the book when you guys bring in a, quote, mule skinner.
Jim Akenson: yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah.
Jack Kredell: And outside consultant.
Jim Akenson: Right.
Holly Akenson: So yes.
Jim Akenson: Yeah. Important. Yeah, that was important in the early eighties.
Holly Akenson: And well, the other thing that I think is interesting is thinking back on when we were first there, how different the communication was because like Jim said, Ed Krumpe was our supervisor and I doubt we communicated with him more than once a month, either a.
Jim Akenson: Quick.
Holly Akenson: Letter on the backcountry radio or a letter sent out on the mail plane.
Jim Akenson: The backcountry Radio was totally public. So you didn't go into much specific business or personal detail. So it was pretty much by letter.
Holly Akenson: But there was a good trust between Ed Krumpe and us that he knew we were out there doing our job and we didn't really have that much communication back and forth. Now I just think about that and think of how unusual that would be to have somebody that's hired that you don't ever hear from that has such little contact.
Jim Akenson: And I think that there were some researchers that were involved that Taylor in those early eighties years, 82 to 85, that were important influences on us as well. Gary Koehler's bobcat research he did for his dissertation through Maurice Hornocker That was an important one because it carried on that tradition at Heritage of how you conduct winter research business in that environment, with the use of the stock wall, tents, food stored in garbage cans, all of that.
Jim Akenson: And then Frank Hardy's archeology anthropology work, looking at the subsistence lifestyle patterns of the tactics of the sheep or Indians on Big Creek, that was just like being in a National Geographic special where day in and day out we would have some contact or involvement with the crew that was doing the excavation just to half a mile downstream from Taylor Ranch to look at these house pits and what artifacts could be found there.
Jim Akenson: And also speculating how these people would have lived in that environment. So very major influences on us and how we viewed the type of learning experiences that could be conducted from that that site looking into the future.
Holly Akenson: And I think for me, one of the things that I really liked about being tied with a small field station is the opportunity to learn from everybody who's doing research or classes. There. And we definitely took advantage of that and went out with people on their field excursions or we had our students go with various researchers and and learn and experience the various aspects.
Holly Akenson: But it really brings together the connectedness of different research projects. And we saw that kind of collaboration with some of the research, particularly in the stream ecology side of things that geologists would collaborate with fish biologists and aquatic invertebrate biologists and people looking at stream morphology and coming together and spending time camping together and talking together about what everybody found and how does it interrelate.
Holly Akenson: And I really thought that was really a special opportunity to be tied with multiple research projects and learning about all the different facets.
Jim Akenson: So and I guess I would add to that the social site for that transfer of information in the eighties anyway, perhaps the late nineties was the barbecue pit, the same pit where Dave Lewis had entertained his clients in the 1920s and thirties and just Taylor in the fifties and sixties. That's where everybody would get together and transfer that information in.
Jim Akenson: And actually that's the same barbecue pit where the governor at that time, Governor Baldrige and Forrest's upper echelon and Dave Lewis got together and talked about the need for establishing the Idaho primitive area. And that would have been in the early to mid twenties. So that is a very significant site. And I think if you were going to have a you talked about using pins on places that are important, the barbecue pit, the Taylor Ranch is the hub of transfer of information that spans now greater than a century.
Jim Akenson: So a real significant point.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it sounds like all the research done at Taylors and the disciplinary.
Jim Akenson: Really is and to me, I think that's its strength and will be not just in the past or now, but into the future, is that blending of scientific thinking and approach to environmental problems and solutions? Basically?
Jack Kredell: Yeah, that seems important now. Yeah, because in the foreword to your book, Maurice quotes Aldo Leopold to the effect that the landscape for the land is an organism. And you guys were at Taylor, I think the year that Idaho reintroduced Wolves not too far from Taylor. And I'm wondering if you can talk about the change to that organism that occurred, as a result of the reintroduction.
Holly Akenson: So we move back to Taylor Ranch Research Station in 19.
Jim Akenson: 97.
Holly Akenson: Seven. So it was a couple of years after Wolves had been reintroduced in central Idaho. And that was actually one of the big reasons we wanted to go back as wildlife biologists. We wanted to study that relationship. So originally we thought we would start studying cougars because there had been three previous cougar research projects and we wanted to be prepared for when wolves moved into the cougar territories.cougars
Holly Akenson: As it turned out, the very year we started to do our research, the Wolves arrived on Big Creek and so we initiated a study of cougars and wolves, and we saw some fascinating changes, particularly those first few years after wolves populated the area. There were significant changes in the ungulate population, particularly elk. We were collecting information on the carcasses of the animals that were killed by cougars and wolves and found that that population of elk was quite old.
Holly Akenson: And so there were really a lot of older aged animals suddenly being killed by wolves. It was different than when cougars were the only the only big predator that was back there.cougars
Jim Akenson: We take a break for just the second. I've got to go to the bathroom and I'm going to get her to shut up.
Jack Kredell: Okay. So we were talking about changes to the landscape as as a result of the reintroduction of more light.
Jim Akenson: And I guess I would say in regards to that, I wouldn't really say the landscape as much as the occupants of the landscape, the other animals, and there was quite a bit of effect, particularly as the years went by, the wolves became, well, basically asserted their dominance and became more numerous. We had this phenomena which really complicated that assessment and our research in that at the same time wolves are gaining momentum and increasing in number.
Jim Akenson: We had this massive wildfire, so it was kind of hard to sort out is the effect of what's going on related to the fire or is it the wolves or is it a combination of the two and, you know, I guess our focal species that we were looking at to get at that question was cougars, wolves, mountain lions.
Jim Akenson: And they certainly were affected by both those entities. The fire, in terms of how it affected the prey base, the prey species, but they they were having a struggle and then you put wolves in on top of it and I just think it really affected cougars adversely. So now it'd be interesting to look at that same situation now that there's been an element of reduction in wolf numbers through hunting and cougars have had the opportunity to adapt to living with wolves.
Jim Akenson: It's it's it's dynamic. It's always in a state of change. And that situation we saw it out was certainly different than the situation of today.
Holly Akenson: Well, I think that that's really the big message that we learned personally and professionally is the dynamics of of a wild environment that is, you know, Maurice Hornocker quoted Aldo Leopold about the stability of an ecosystem and coming back to a stable state. But it's the dynamic aspect that really, I guess you could call it stable or you could call it not stable, but things change and different aspects influence other aspects and they may not come back to the same normal that there was in the past.
Holly Akenson: And we had one of our favorite data sets that we looked at was the long term change in ungulate populations over time. And we used a variety of sources for data and looked at relative abundance of deer and elk and bighorn sheep and moose and mountain goat. But we started with the dataset from the from the sheep beta Indians with information that was collected from the archeologists from these house pit sites of what the proportion of species in the bones that were found in these sites.
Holly Akenson: And early on and 2000 years ago, bighorn sheep were the predominant species in lower Big Creek, and that's what the Indians were eating, also some deer. And then we move forward in time and and use the diary from the Caswell brothers who had homesteaded on Cavin Creek around 1900. And they kept a daily diary of what they shot and what they ate and what they poisoned.
Holly Akenson: And so we got a good sense of what the relative species abundance was at that time. And at that time it was primarily deer with probably bighorn secondary and rare for elk.
Jim Akenson: And rare for wolves, which was rare.
Holly Akenson: For wolves. They would mention hearing wolves, but not really talking about packs of wolves. But they were very busy killing cougars with poison and sometimes killing their own dogs with their poison. And then coming forward in time, we had some Forest Service and Idaho Fish and Game game counts from the thirties and the forties in the fifties and we were able to then plot that and then Maurice Hornocker's research data from the sixties and seventies and Idaho Fish and Game and our own research into the future and from there and we saw that there was a dramatic change in the relative species abundance between the different species and there were several things that probably drove
Holly Akenson: them. Some of them were human affected related to hunting, and some of them were natural changes in the environment. So that that whole story of the dynamic equilibrium is it was just fascinating to see in the wilderness when you can actually look at large ungulate populations over time like that.
Jack Kredell: That's quite a dataset.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, Yeah.
Holly Akenson: It's a very unusual. But you know, the, the pieces kind of fit together and I think they're reasonably accurate about what was actually happening on the ground. But yeah, so different different sources.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. And it seems like Taylor is essential to maintaining continuity between these extremely diverse datasets that, you know, maybe a modern research institution can't really accomplish.
Holly Akenson: Yeah, right.
Jim Akenson: Well, it sort of epitomizes a natural history baseline and with a lot of emphasis on both nature and history. And that is extremely unique. And it could be that Taylor will reach its own prominence that that role that probably deserves from either terrestrial environment as time goes on. And climatological data, you know, we maintained a weather station for all the years we were there spanning again that 28 year time period.
Jim Akenson: And now it's done in an automated, automated manner. But it's all really valuable as we look at things like the effect of climate change.
Akenson_2
Jim Akenson: The. Are you running that? I feel the biggest change that we saw was the massive wildfire of the year 2000 and it just changed everything. Basically, it changed the infrastructure of the facility. It changed how wildlife interacted in that environment. It changed our role as managers and scientists at that field station, because so much of what we did was either directly, it was everything was directly oriented to the fire, either the effect on our water system and our fences or the interest in research which came about.
Jim Akenson: And there was a lot of interest in research from a forestry perspective, from the tree or that the tree ecology, so to speak, vegetative ecology, rangeland ecology and Jim Peek did a lot of work in, in that arena, both with pre and post fire data to look at for comparison and the stream itself. You know it lost a lot of its riparian cover and and that whole dynamic changed flows changed with runoff.
Jim Akenson: The stability of the airstrip had to be dealt with. There was so many things that that fire affected and it really from our personal or carnivore research perspective I felt took us out of a forefront situation and directly comparable to what was going on in the Yellowstone system with the work we were doing, to not having the time anymore, to really look at how wolves, for instance, were affecting the mountain lion, the cougar situation.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk about how the fire affected you both personally?
Jim Akenson: Yeah, it it was high drama for us, and we'd been through fire before Taylor Ranch in 1988, the same time Yellowstone was going through its big fire episode. We had a 100,000 acre fire that was primarily to the north of Big Creek, but was a threat to Taylor Ranch. And we spent, a few weeks. I won't say under siege, but under the protection of the Forest Service.
Jim Akenson: With that fire positioned just to the north of us. And remember what that complex was called at that time. But it was a major fire, Golden Creek fire. But it was nothing like what we experienced with the Diamond Point fire and the big fire of 2000, which involved multiple fires merging together, us having to evacuate the field station and going to our nearest neighbor 21 miles away, and then having the opportunity or the misfortune to experience a real firestorm.
Jim Akenson: Once we were at the flying B on the middle fork of the Salmon. It was high drama. It was scary. It was, in a way, life changing to go through that sort of an experience and something that people who are living in remote situations today are typically not given the opportunity to experience.
Holly Akenson: I think for me, the the fire was the first time I really felt like, you know, this is what wilderness is about. We have no control over this environment or what's going to happen to us. We don't have the option to just fly out or be rescued in a helicopter. so that was quite a different feeling. We had always been comfortable in the wilderness and not afraid of what might happen or, you know what, that we might be in danger in the backcountry.
Holly Akenson: But that was truly a sense of knowing that we had no power over nature, and nature was going to do whatever happened. And we were we were going to be the victims of it. Whether it turned out well or not well. So that was certainly a big enlightening perspective for me.
Jim Akenson: And it was a level of stimulation that I don't think I've ever felt before, particularly when we were at the Flying B and we had a dozen or so people that were all in the same situation. And we knew that our survival was dependent upon our emergency plan, implementing that plan and our instincts and how we responded at that moment to what was going on.
Jim Akenson: And it seems like the Bear Report post massive fire evaluation that Forest Service did indicated that, well, we experience very few career firefighters go through, which is being in the middle of a firestorm.
Jack Kredell: And it's that like can you talk about that?
Jim Akenson: Yeah, it was scary, basically. And it was a new experience. So you just didn't know what was going to happen next. You were reacting at the moment and Holly and I were in separate situations. She was out in a great big alfalfa field with a large herd of horses and mules and some women that were less physically capable to react to that situation.
Jim Akenson: And I was ultimately trapped in a shop with two guys that were had a similar responsibility to that was our fallback point, was to go to that shop, you know, that we didn't really realize that it would be to protect ourselves from a horrific wind because there was somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 mile an hour wind that was accompanied with the firefront as it overwhelmed the Flying V facility.
Jim Akenson: And no, it was just totally high drama and putting out spot fires. And and then as we all regrouped after the big firefront had played run its course, it was one of firefighting and structural firefighting. So it was intense drama and a great big extension bridge that spanned the middle fork of the salmon. It pulled out of its its foundation that was built in 1950.
Jim Akenson: So it had gone 100 years without or 50 years without experiencing that type of wind before. So again, it was just simply high drama, adrenaline rush.
Holly Akenson: Then immediately following the fire, the adrenaline rush disappeared and was quite a depressing sense. It was a lot of fighting among the Flying B employees and just the sense of depression where we were looking at the devastation of burned areas that previously we never would have imagined could have burned, you know, lush, riparian areas. And we were finding dead and dying wildlife.
Holly Akenson: And so that was really hard to deal with. And we had this sense of melancholy for quite a while after that. It just felt like all this beautiful area that we lived in was now blackened and not so nice. And I, I vividly remember thinking, Well, I know as a scientist that fire is good. And I kept telling myself, Remember, fire is good, but it's kind of not in my backyard sense.
Holly Akenson: Yeah, fire over there is good. But right where we lived, it was for a while. It was very hard to see the beauty in the area and we had to actively seek out beautiful things. A new flower or the color of the new shrubs coming up in the riparian in the fall. It was it was difficult and and then even like we would fly out from the wilderness and come to places like this Willow Valley and see all these green trees.
Holly Akenson: And it just seemed incredible that there were slopes of green trees. So our whole perspective was altered by our environment, living every day in an area that had burned trees and burned forests. That green forest actually seemed quite unusual to us. So was very interesting to see that our perspective could change so much.
Jim Akenson: And I think it brought about this element of scale and, you know, controlled fire, small scale burns, 15 to 20000 acres, which is still quite a bit compared to 250,000 acres. That's just devastating. And I understand historically that there was a lot of stand replacement for massive wildfire in the Salmon River mountains. But feeling it, seeing it directly, you realized, wow, that is a major event.
Jim Akenson: It's not something that seems in the proper scale of wise management, that it was basically too much and it did change my view of of wildfire. Definitely.
Holly Akenson: It changed my view, too. And I think in a way, we knew from our personal experience this was not normal. And at the time, you know, we talked to the Forest Service and I actually asked our forest supervisor if there was an opportunity to go to Washington, DC and talk to politicians about fire, that this was not a normal situation.
Jim Akenson: And this is in the year 2000.
Holly Akenson: This is before everybody started realizing, you know what, climate change has changed things and that wasn't normal. But at the time, the Forest Service was still promoting this view. That fire is always good and fire and wilderness should always be allowed to do what it does. And it would drive us crazy to see any new fires in our area and the Forest Service would public say, We're going to let this burn because it's beneficial to the environment.
Holly Akenson: And 75% of our Ranger districts had been burned in the last 20 years, and there was no way that additional fire was beneficial to the environment. But that was just the language of the day. And so it's interesting now for us to see, it's well accepted now that these fires are not normal and they're not all beneficial and improving things.
Holly Akenson: They're they're different because of climate change.
Jack Kredell: Do you think that fire suppression played a role in its extent and severity.
Jim Akenson: You know, I think that it it probably did. I think there was some disease occurrence in trees. There was another factor that I just really think the whether it's climate change or climatological cycle or shift that that dry dryness factor was the biggest variable. Yeah. I mean, we came, you know, again, the old Idaho years in 1985 was the last year that I we were involved in supporting the lookout going up to Rush Point Lookout.
Jim Akenson: And at that time that that was still manned and there was forest fire observation activities that were pretty intensive in that time period. It was transitioning from lookouts being manned in the mid eighties to aerial surveillance, but it was still done with the intent of if there's a fire out there, we probably need to jump on it and put it out.
Jim Akenson: So there's this whole mantra, this whole there's the physical change that's occurring related to climate, and then there's the sociological aspect that well, no, like Holly mentioned, fire is good, doesn't matter the scale. And so we came out of this thinking, well, you know, controlled burns are really a good thing because they can help temper that out of control scale aspect.
Jim Akenson: It was quite a learning experience for us, really, and I do think that we were in a unique situation to to feel it, absorb it, and then convey what we'd witnessed. And, but we never really had that opportunity outside of writing some published articles. And also what we put as a fire story in our book, maybe smaller scale, but I'd kind of forgotten about you contacting the forest supervisor about that.
Jim Akenson: And that that was kind of the mindset that we had at that time was like, my gosh, we've experienced something that maybe is a view into the future, looking into a crystal ball of what's going to happen around the West in that year, 2000 and shortly thereafter.
Jack Kredell: So it sounds like you've adapted, though.
Jim Akenson: We did adapt and we we had a scientific responsibility, we felt, to, okay, we've been through this. We true, we have our personal views on this. But now it's really important is to monitor change. And we kind of buckled down into that role, I think. And it was great to see all the other interests that that came about from that stream ecology, forest health and replacement.
Holly Akenson: Yeah, I think that I don't know if anything's going on now with any research on that, but the the Douglas fir forest that was there before might not ever come back and look the same. And so again, there's that dynamic relationship of the ecological conditions that you can't necessarily predict that something will be altered and then come back to the same as it had been before.
Holly Akenson: That's often the case. But when you have a changing climate, I know Katie Cavanough was doing some research early on after the fire, and for the first two years after the fire, we had drought summers and the little Doug fir seedlings that from the trees that actually put out cones as they were dying. The little seedlings came up in the spring, but they didn't have enough moisture to survive through the summer.
Holly Akenson: So we were not seeing reproduction and we lost a lot of that potential for reproduction on some of the trees because the summer conditions didn't allow for that quick rebound and the forest.
Jim Akenson: Yeah. And there's I don't know there's again this unusual blend of technological capability and old ways of viewing nature. And you know, like I think about the lidar flights that occurred and, you know, latest imagery capability that was being applied to the burnt swath of Big Creek. And yet, on the other hand, there was our basic functioning happening with the loss of our water system.
Jim Akenson: And yeah, all of a sudden we had this huge availability of firewood, but everything was black and it just it wasn't as nice to deal with. Yes. Finding a dead tree here, there. And and adding that to our larder of firewood needs for the winter. So it it was a strange contrast and the dynamics of change, the contrast of time is something I think that's really interwoven into that site, that place.
Holly Akenson: It's also a new source of danger.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Holly Akenson: Living at Taylor Ranch. You mentioned the The Bear group. The Forest Service analysis post-fire about conditions and they reported that the drainage that flows in above Taylor Ranch was severely burned and that there was a high likelihood in the next ten years post-fire that there would be a massive debris flow and of high likelihood, I think they said a 50% likelihood of risk to.
Jim Akenson: Human life.
Holly Akenson: Human lives. So that was a little intimidating to hear that from the Forest Service. And at one point we were going to have some faculty come in and talk about Post-Fire research. They decided it was too dangerous for them to come in. So it was just Jim and I that stayed there in the dangerous situation because there was a thunderstorm and it was a possibility that there could have been a debris flow flash floods.
Holly Akenson: But we actually had a safety plan for the possibility that we would have a debris flow that could separate the two sides of Taylor Ranch. And we had emergency gear placed up on the hillsides on both sides. It had blankets and food and.
Jim Akenson: Communications.
Holly Akenson: Flashlights and two-way radios in case we had to suddenly evacuate and run up the hill just to avoid being wiped out from a big flood event. So every time we had a thunderstorm, we were always checking the stream and seeing what the situation with the water was. There more water than usual? Was there less water than usual because either one of those two could be a problem?
Holly Akenson: If there was damming up above, we might not see any water in the stream, which would be probably more risky than seeing too much water. So there was a time period that we were kind of on high alert and we had to let our students know that we would. We had these protocols in case we needed to evacuate people.
Jim Akenson: But it also stimulated research interests that put us I think, into the at least in our three decade association with Taylor Ranch, the peak of activity Post-Fire, which occurred from maybe 2002 or three up until 2007 or eight, roughly, where there was this intense interest in that place was at absolute capacity. The field station was our researchers from Idaho State Federal government, Idaho, Fish and Game, University of Idaho.
Jim Akenson: There was just a lot going on and a lot of student involvement as well because of that. So, you know, there was a a good component that came from that big event. But putting it all in perspective, it kind of boils down to what we were bringing up earlier, that wilderness is dynamic in that whole episode, That whole time period, I think, captured that dynamic aspect.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it sounds like wilderness sometimes changes or is dynamic in ways that are unanticipated or perhaps perhaps for us or kind of exceeded our expectations. Yeah. What changes could happen?
Jim Akenson: Yeah. Yeah. You know, people could say, well, what if grizzlies were restored back in that system? How would that change everything? And and I think the tendency is to think, well it would be more dangerous to camp here. There to me that is so small scale compared to what a massive wildfire will bring about change wise.
Jim Akenson: And it's just it's just a little dot a speck of sand compared to that scale of wildfire. So.
Holly Akenson: Well, in our own research, it was interesting to see, like Jim said, we were in the middle of our research project when the fire hit. And one of the things that we found -- and again, it was more subjective than having a research plan and a data set, but we were studying cougars and wolves, and we found that the wolves benefited from wildfire and the cougars were adversely affected.
Holly Akenson: And we attributed that to the different the different.
Jim Akenson: Life styles.
Holly Akenson: Life, survival strategies of the two species that wolves lived in packs in had very, very large territories and the Cougars were, had individual territories. So when most of the big creek drainage burned, the wolves could take that large pack and move to another drainage that hadn't been burned. But the individual cougars didn't have an option to leave their own territory to go to another one.
Holly Akenson: And so we had cougars that were starving and.
Jim Akenson: Killing each other.
Holly Akenson: Killing each other and high stress environment. And the wolves seemed to do just fine. The elk from the Big Creek winter range went to the Chamberlain Basin, and that's where the wolves spent the winter. So they actually had twice as many elk concentrated in a non burned area and the cougars had very little to eat. We actually even documented them killing moose that were starving to death because the moose also did not move.
Holly Akenson: They stayed where they had been for previous years and there was no food because the riparian was burned. So we found some fascinating relationships, but in the big picture it it adversely affected our research ability because we had commitments at the field station. But, but what we learned from fire was fascinating, and we would have never been able to know that if we hadn't had the fire occur in the middle of our research.
Jim Akenson: It kind of blew up the scale of what the questions we were trying to answer in regards to are wolves influencing cougar stability and in how they went about their lives. Because my colleagues said the wolves went a long ways away and rather than interacting with the cougars that were in our study area per se, were probably interacting with a whole different population, we just couldn't get on top of it logistically.
Jim Akenson: And then you combine that, I think if we wouldn't have had the responsibilities at the field station, we might have been able to adapt to that scale, but it still would have been a huge challenge in the way movements that occurred. Let's grab a bite to eat.
Jack Kredell: That's pretty good.
Jim Akenson: Yeah. So one thing that we didn't talk about that I think is important to address with Taylor is the I don't know how to describe the legacy of learning the student aspect. And I would say now looking back on our accomplishments at Taylor, I would have to say influencing young people and stimulating young people to pursue careers in some aspect.
Jim Akenson: The natural resource management, I would say that was our hallmark and the relationships that we built with our students. We've got many great lifelong friendships that came from that and it was very rewarding to see that. I mean, it was cool to bring the place around for functioning and a living history manner with the mule team and all that stuff.
Jim Akenson: But when it's said and done, the real important take home was the the opportunity for students to develop their own knowledge base and have their own experiences and then share those experiences with others. Was important.
Holly Akenson: I would agree with that. I think that for me was also a primary sense of satisfaction and that, you know, we could challenge students but also help them figure out a success. And we just saw so much growth in that age class is the age that they're going to be really growing and learning anyway. But I think that wilderness environment in having self-sufficiency and really we just saw so much change within a summer with students in their confidence, their self-confidence and feeling like, yeah, I can do this.
Holly Akenson: And we just love seeing those changes in the students really growing and and blossoming after their summer at Taylor. And and for us not having children, they were like our kids. So we've been to a lot of weddings and we keep track of babies being born and it's just been really special for us to, to see the careers of the students that we were involved with.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: So that ties into one of my last questions, which is what kind of future you want to see for Taylor?
Jim Akenson: Well, I think that multifaceted learning opportunity is huge. That involves a high involvement with students. Students are the key, both undergraduate and graduate. Obviously, there needs to be faculty engagement there who whoever's on site hopefully can stay long enough to absorb a lot of those elements that we've talked about with the the local history, the natural history, and why the and understanding why the place is so special.
Jim Akenson: So it's this mixed bag that at the base foundation level is student learning opportunities and at various levels.
Holly Akenson: And one of the things that some of our students told us was that they they learned so much in their summer as student interns, as undergrads, they would say more than what they learned in class. But I think what they meant was the pieces came together in the field that when you're actually working science, the all the pieces you learn as book learning makes sense.
Holly Akenson: And so I think that's an important role for providing students that opportunity to connect academic learning with the reality of how that fits in to natural resources and in nature. And I know one of Jim's big pushes also is that it also should be an adventure for students. You know that when you go to the wilderness, it shouldn't be lots of rules and you can't do this and you can't do that.
Holly Akenson: It's a time of exploration for students and a time to learn what you can and can't do. And so I think it's important to give students as much leeway as they can handle. And if they need guidance to help them succeed, then then provide that. But it's a fine balance to maximize them gaining personally what they need to gain in that kind of environment.
Holly Akenson: But I think it's such a unique environment. The University of Idaho has a real gem in a place to help develop students in a way that can't be done anywhere else.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, and you know, the future of Taylor it's dependent upon now funding is a big part of that. It's you know, we've had visits with UI leadership and the current Dean Dennis Becker, was very motivated to help secure that, which is great. It's hard to get over the hump and really get that established to where there's a block of money donation that produces enough interest through an endowment to be able to fund basic functioning, plus provide unique research and education opportunities.
Jim Akenson: And I think that that it's going to happen. It's just you don't know exactly when and it's got to take all the stars to get aligned properly. And it could be we're at that point in time. But it's it's really good to see a core folks that are willing to keep that that place at the forefront, keep it alive as something that's going to extend into the future.
Jim Akenson: And I think that as long as there's that nucleus, we're in good shape looking ahead. And when we were involved and some others, Janet Pope and Ed Krumpe and Jim Peek and a variety of other folks who have connections to Taylor Ranch envision this Friends of Taylor, which was this core of people that would be capable of some financial help, but primarily would share a vision which would ultimately lead to this endowment.
Jim Akenson: And I just think that is one of these times everything's going to come together and then that place will be self-supporting and could really develop to its full potential.
Holly Akenson: So think about, I can say on the research side, it seems that it takes a couple core faculty who really have a commitment to do something in that kind of environment. And it's not an easy research environment because it's not accessible by vehicles, but it seems to me like it's time to do another kind of a group meeting with potential researchers who would like to talk about, you know, what are the best purposes and the best ideas for research at Taylor.
Holly Akenson: You know, things have changed. We've got fire, we've got global climate change is now thought in a very different way than the last time there was a group of faculty that got together and said, Well, where do we see the best focus for Taylor? And it may be an individual person with their own personal interests, or it may be a core group that says, you know, this would be an ideal focus for research, but to get at least two or three researchers, whether from U of I or ISU or.
Jim Akenson: Wherever.
Holly Akenson: National, you know, Forest Service, USGS, to start putting together a program. It seems like once something gets started, it grows. But right now things have kind of died out and there's not a core research program going on and it needs to be started back up. There's still some research going on in the area, but I don't know how much integration among faculty or of looking at some of the past data that might be available to expand on.
Holly Akenson: But I think the research is another critical component. It's not just for education. The wilderness is a a great place to do research and there's already some good solid data sets and and publications that have come out that either could be built on or expanded in different directions. So I'm hoping to see a research program as well. And just like an endowment for education to seek out some some base funding, I mean, even if it's just to maintain monitoring because there is some monitoring still going on and monitoring is important and that's usually the last thing to get funded.
Holly Akenson: But those long term data sets or what field stations are known for and there's some of that at Taylor, there could be more.
Jim Akenson: You know, and there's a good core of fact. Lee still active Colden Baxter for my issue was wonderful for us to work with and many still there and it'd be nice to expand his engagement. Brian Kennedy another faculty from U of I was quite involved shortly after the fire and it would be nice to get him re stimulated and whatever that takes.
Jim Akenson: If it's another big NSF grant or whatever. There needs to be a push to to do that because those guys, they already have a feel for the place and, and they would be very beneficial in bringing in the next cohort of folks that would follow in their footsteps. Maybe it's in a different field, different discipline.
Holly Akenson: And they're both very collaborative.
Jim Akenson: They're both very collaborative.
Holly Akenson: So it could be some people who are not very directly connected that could collaborate and really create some unique results.
Jim Akenson: And I guess personally I would like to see a continuation slash completion of the archeology work that was done by Dr. Frank Leon Hardy, and he had graduate students in there that completed their thesis requirements. But there's a lot more that a lot of loose ends that didn't get tied together. And I think that that's an awesome learning experience for students to this field archeology type camps.
Jim Akenson: And to me that was a surprising high point scientifically in our Taylor Branch experience was that work looking at how the Sheepeater Indians live their lifestyle in that piece of country?
Jack Kredell: As managers, you witness just a constant stream of comings and goings. Now different people, scientists, I'm curious to know what you think stays with people. So maybe. Taylor You know what you what do people take out with them.
Holly Akenson: As far as the researchers.
Jack Kredell: Know something something like deeper like, yeah, they spend a little bit of time at Taylor I'm. I'm. I'm wondering what you think people. What what sort of experiences or relationships or whatever it is that people bring out of Taylor with them into their everyday lives.
Holly Akenson: I think just like how we felt, I think a lot of people, even if they're just there for a short time, get this sense of immersion, direct connection with nature. and you know, we just hear so often how much people enjoyed being at Taylor or in the wilderness there. And I think it's, it's that absence of the everyday things that keep us all busy.
Holly Akenson: You know, we see people come to Taylor Ranch and often takes a couple of days before they kind of slow down and you can see the new people or just, you know, what time is it? what's my schedule? I need to do this or I need to do that. And that becomes a slow nurse where you can think deeper, think longer, create connecting relationships with people and with nature without the everyday hassles.
Jim Akenson: so refreshing, reinvigorating type of an experience. I personally have often thought something that is not realized at Taylor is the potential for a writer in residence or writers in residence because it's the type of environment that really stimulates creativity. And you know, we obviously wrote a book after we left, but I can remember thinking so many times having our daily diary in front of me and thinking about a topic or a story that I could be much more creative if I were doing the same at the site, on site, listening to Big Creek, just hearing all the sights and sounds and smells of that drainage, it just it it's invigorating.
Holly Akenson: And I think that goes the same for research, you know. You know, with that opportunity to slow down and think about things. I think the creative thought process for science is there as well. Now that, you know, sitting in an office in Moscow is not quite the same. I mean, you can look at data and maybe get more insights, but being out in the natural environment really allows for that creative thought, whether it's science or art.
Jim Akenson: This is kind of off tangent a little bit. But I know one thing I thought of a few times, particularly our last few visits to Moscow, is how similar that must our experience was to Dave Lewis. When Dave Lewis went to Boise and he looked at those buildings, he hadn't been there in 30 some years, ever since he was based at Fort Boise as a Army scout.
Jim Akenson: And in thinking, my gosh, how do all these people make a living? Why are all these people at this one place? It's just seems odd. Then fast forward to us going to Moscow and just seeing everybody hustling around and looking at their computer screens and even then and in nine and early 2010, cell phones are starting to come around.
Jim Akenson: And it was like, man, you guys have just lost touch with reality. And it just seemed like such a an odd concept that, wow, what's happening to mankind? And it's kind of repeated itself over time and, you know, for Lewis, it was saying whatever the name of that hotel was there in Boise that he'd visited in 1881 or something like that, and then saw it again in the late 1920s.
Jim Akenson: And my gosh, it's the same place. But look what's happened around it. There's a city around it now. And so I don't know, I guess that's to some degree a little bit of an unhealthy thought that maybe it's a wake up that we as people, through having those refreshing experiences at sites like Taylor Ranch, can perhaps look at our global our world situation a little bit differently, not get so wound up and bent out of shape over situation that we either can't control or we should take a different perspective in how we address those problems.
Jim Akenson: And and I'm thinking mostly environmental type issues there.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, students are especially students of science are so immersed in data now. Yeah. There's a lot less familiarity with the sources of data. Right. And how to render data from the world.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: I feel like Taylor is a great place where you can be immersed in the sources.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, that's true. It's fundamental. Yeah, it's very.
Holly Akenson: Kind of the big picture because data is usually about a small thing and you can say a lot about that small thing that you study. But if you don't understand how it fits in the big picture, you might misinterpret the data that you have.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, but I don't know. There's still hope. And you know, you work with these students and you you get to know them and you really see that people don't change from one generation to the next. They're affected by other influences that are somewhat external. And Taylor provides an influence that I think is very wholesome for the future and environmental awareness, scientific understanding, historical perspective is also very important and it's just I don't know, there's there's a lot of hope.
Jim Akenson: And in that place is one of those nodes of hope.
Jack Kredell: So. Right. what about any I'm thinking now about using some of those cans in geography stuff. Yeah. A very memorable animal encounters.
Jim Akenson: boy. Yeah.
Holly Akenson: Too many.
Jim Akenson: There's a lot. There's a lot. And some of them had happy endings and we're. my gosh, wasn't that amazing? And others were close calls thinking about having a park string and encountering a moose on the trail and the horse backing back through the pack string and causing a big mess. Yeah, I mean, there's just a number of things.
Holly Akenson: We have many of them tied with our research. In the summer, we were taking students to wolf dens, so almost every Woolston encounter was pretty interesting.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Holly Akenson: And camping around wolves or researching wolves and cougars as well.
Jim Akenson: We'll have to spend another part of a day coming up with points on maps because it's something that that's a cool idea. Cameron Creek has a lot of stories and nodes with it, and the pictographs down by Soldier Bar is another one that's stimulated a lot of thoughts, dialog and created experiences.
Jack Kredell: So we're have a resident talk for a little bit.
Jim Akenson: We did.
Holly Akenson: Yeah. That was Gary Koehler. Come here.
Jim Akenson: Come here. The Bobcat. He was a character out. You didn't want to leave any thawing meat out on the counter or you're going to end up in a battle to get recover your elk roast.
Holly Akenson: Which we did. Yeah. Occasions, I think.
Jim Akenson: Had to involve the dog once, too. Yeah. pack rats and numerous pack rats, especially after the fire.
Holly Akenson: Bear's breeding in the garden that we can hear in the middle of the night. And yeah, like some old man being beaten or something that you sort of want to lock the door and go, I don't know what's going on out there, but lock the doors.
Jim Akenson: You and Packers coming up to the house the middle of the night after having a big packed string wreck in the gorge and losing loads and having a few animals drowned and harrowing experience. And it's just there's a ton of things and a lot of them are in the book that we wrote, but a lot of them are another book and or documentation like what you're doing.
Jim Akenson: Jack With the points on the map, I think that's a really cool idea. Click on that and get multiple stories over time. Well, some hours, but other people have got great stories too. And if you could just coalesce that around a site, low bar base and cabin crew, soldier bar.
Holly Akenson: that's thinking another site that would be good related to wildlife is across from Taylor Rancher the benches on the benches. And in no late November the bighorn sheep rut primarily right there and so you can hear them butting heads from the cabins and there might be 60 or 80 bighorn sheep up on this one bench up there.
Holly Akenson: You can go up and hang out with them.
Jack Kredell: That sounds like the best, but.
Holly Akenson: It sounds like chopping.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, Yeah, it is.
Holly Akenson: It sounds like a big funk. Yeah. So when you hear it.
Jim Akenson: Yeah.
Holly Akenson: It's like, somebody's chopping firewood.
Jim Akenson: There's a reverberation thing about it that it takes horn again. So they're great. But one of the big observations I thought was cool was when we saw Mike Schlegel was with as a Idaho fish and game biologist, we watched through a spotting scope, this fairly large mountain lion moving in on a group of sheep, and they just bunched together like musk ox.
Jim Akenson: And then one of the young rams went out towards the cat with this blob of big horns behind it and the cat turned and took off. It was confused by that. But, you know, those are things that are not well documented, that being there all the time and looking at this one hillside, like all these mansions all the time, you see just a variety of different things.
Jim Akenson: And recognizing rattlesnakes are a big part of that system. They're they're there. You see them all the time. You know, they're can be startling at times, but they're also pretty fascinating in the fact that the rattlesnake research that was done there determined that these snakes are going from down load up to 7000 feet elevation and they're traveling pretty good distances in the course of their activity time of the year.
Jim Akenson: And then all going back to a common den site and knowing that that was going on was pretty fascinating. But that's one animal that I don't care to do radio telemetry on after having done some of it, because it's an unpretty sized thing with a Yagi antenna and moving in and.
Holly Akenson: You know your close but yeah, know which way to step. Yeah.
Jim Akenson: Yeah. If you're lucky you hear them rattle that. Yeah. Some great experiences.
Holly Akenson: A lot of interesting encounters when we were trapping wolves And so those were always.
Jim Akenson: For radio.
Holly Akenson: We had telemetry on our traps. So in the middle of the night, if we were trapping near Taylor Edge, we would know the trap was disturbed. And so sometimes just one of us would go out to check the trap. It was a little unnerving at night to go out and wonder, is there going to be a wolf in this trap or is the whole pack around?
Holly Akenson: We really didn't know for sure.
Jim Akenson: Or is it a non-target like an elk that's got the trap on its foot or. Yeah. Or a bobcat. Yeah. That had to be done carefully, for sure. I think that there's a whole nother aspect of living there that is important to document, and that's the role of aviation in that backcountry, in that wilderness and that field station, because it really made the logistics possible and doable and aircraft use and wilderness is a point of controversy.
Jim Akenson: But in that particular case, it was so blended into that backcountry culture. It was it was critical for the capability to use that area to educate and research in that area. It was a very big part. And I grew up my father was a pilot before World War Two. He served in a B-17 group in World War Two and he was really into aviation and he always really wanted to see me become a pilot and get into flying.
Jim Akenson: And I might have done that, except where it seemed like whenever I was getting close, there would be somebody who we knew, who was highly experienced, who had a mishap. Not that it happened frequently. It didn't, but it just happened enough to make me realize you want to be operating in there as a pro, not as a beginner.
Jim Akenson: So I was always hesitant to get a pilot's license, but I still really valued aviation. I think I became pretty aware and competent of aviation capabilities, different aircraft, different conditions. And I, I value that association. That's something that I, I view, I guess with good favor. Looking back on it as all those aviation related experiences and some of them were a little bit harrowing.
Jim Akenson: We certainly had some of.
Jack Kredell: Those.
Jim Akenson: With no visibility in getting near dark and pretty much relying on that pilot sitting next to you and their judgment, because this is before GPS technology, it's pretty much them having confidence in their altitude, their compass and their capability to fly straight and keep level when you didn't have any visibility. But they did it. And here we are today.
Jim Akenson: So I guess that's the testimony to it, that many good pilots Arnold Aviation, McCall Air Taxi and folks from Pullman and Moscow were good as well that those ones that we flew with week in and week out Arnold aviation Dorrison's's from McCall air taxi I'd put them on the best any pilots on the planet but safety's always important with that.
Jim Akenson: And that's something that Maurice Hornocker reminded us of a few times. I can remember.
Jack Kredell: You have a close call.
Jim Akenson: Well, we had when we did the grand opening of the Dive League cabin in four, we had some precarious flying, people coming from Moscow and the weather just wasn't that cooperative. And then we, you know, those situations. Do you go ahead and try and fly people out now or do you just stay another day and wait out this storm and his inclination and advice was always great.
Jim Akenson: And by chance, I think that we did tend to postpone some flying at that time. And another well-known pilot from the Stanley area did crash that particular day. So it's always best that you're on the side of caution no matter what your experience level.
Holly Akenson: And if the pilot's not comfortable, you just going to do whatever they want. Yeah. No matter what you thought you had scheduled. Yeah. So it was interesting that we often did have days like we might be waiting in Cascade to fly back in 2 to 4.
Jim Akenson: Or five.
Holly Akenson: Days. As difficult as that is, it just hang out and do nothing day after day. You know, that's just part of the backcountry living is you go with the weather allows you to fly and when it doesn't, then you're not going anywhere.
Jim Akenson: Well, you do develop a very close bond with those aviators, be they the pilots or the folks working for the aviation service. I mean, extremely dependent on it. And now I think that's something that's easily taken for granted, that it's incredibly unique and valuable skill, the capability to go safely in and out of those mountains day in and day out.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I'd love to interview some of those pilots.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, Ray Arnold's a good one, Mike Doris is a good one to her. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Both.
Jim Akenson: Yeah, both. And Walt Smith is flying for Arnold now. He's an outstanding pilot. We used to consider him the young pilot, but he's probably now halfway through his career, and he's extremely good.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I think that covers it.
Jim Akenson: Good.
Jack Kredell: But there's. There's something else.
Jim Akenson: Well, we do. We need to talk about those points and some. I think you're onto something that's pretty cool that and I think it's highly valuable. And then for some reason I'm just thinking on those terms and I think if we got some maps out with a little bit of time, we could give you some good stuff and reference you to other people that would have some good stories.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, yeah. Thank you guys.
Armstrong
Andrew Armstrong: My name is Andrew Armstrong. I am the facility superintendent out here. I recently graduated from college with a Ph.D. in materials science and engineering. And I was thinking, you know, what am I going to do that is going to combine being outdoors in the wilderness and ranching, which I love, and also kind of this interest in science, which I kind of developed from my time working on my Ph.D. and, you know, I basically saw this job pop up at Taylor Ranch, and it wasn't really what I was intending to do.
Andrew Armstrong: But, you know, in life you just take these opportunities and jump on it and see what happens. And that's kind of why I'm out here. I grew up and my family, had a back end to trail building, construction business, and one of the projects we rebuilt, Cabin Creek Airstrip, which is the airstrip about five miles upstream from here.
Andrew Armstrong: That was in 1999. And back in those days, the caretakers where Jim Ackerson and we would come down here and see this little Shangri-La of just a beautiful ranch out here and come see Jim and Holly, who work with ... in this traditional way. And we're really kind of a inspirational figure in my life. And I saw this job come about, and here I am.
Andrew Armstrong: Hey, Blackie.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk about what your daily life here is like? What the daily operation of Taylor Ranch is like?
Andrew Armstrong: Well, the life out here depends a lot on the seasons. You know, It's not like you do something new or you kind of doing something new, just depending on what needs to be done. So, you know, in the fall, you know, you might be on a restart.
Jack Kredell: That one or all of the state. What Yeah. What is the daily operation of the ranch look like?
Andrew Armstrong: Just the daily operation of Taylor just kind of depends on the seasons like today was the day with a bunch of people and you know, part of it is just accommodating people and making sure everyone's happy, keeping people busy, working on people's projects, making sure that kind of the progress is forward. You know, so recently I was doing a bunch of hands that I was, you know, had to get all the equipment up and running and do a bunch of maintenance and kind of figure out how it all work.
Andrew Armstrong: Because it's my first year back here and my dad came in and helped me out with figuring out how all this horse drawn equipment works. Currently we're using instructions, pull it. But so I was recently, you know, just using a pitchfork and tossing a bunch of hay in the hay wagon and then taking it to the barn. And I kind of had to rethink how to fix the barn because the barn has been out of commission for a bit.
Andrew Armstrong: So I've been working on that these days. It's still easier. There's a lot of irrigation, so moving sprinklers around, kind of redoing the irrigation, keeping the airstrip mowed, kind of working with the stock, kind of doing getting the electric fences all ready to kind of keep them corralled. You know, it just kind of depends on the day I wake up and I think I'm going to do something and I end up doing kind of something else.
Andrew Armstrong: And it's kind of how it is for most of the year. And, you know, in the winter, you know, you're kind of getting the pipes all ready for the freeze up in the middle of the winter. You're going up there and you're clearing the intakes and making sure the water keeps running and you're going out and checking for the wildlife activity, because just in the middle of winter, it's just it's kind of crazy back here.
Andrew Armstrong: The amount of mountain lions and wolves and deer, it's you know, it's kind of a cold, hungry canyon. So in the middle of winter, it's kind of what we're doing in the spring, kind of getting the garden going. We did a lot of fuels reduction, so it is and prescribed burns out here. And then, you know, at some point everything opens up enough that we can start having students and groups back here middle of spring, and then we run internships.
Andrew Armstrong: That's kind of early summer and we run that until kind of the fire season starts, which is about now. And I'm kind of getting all the irrigation prepped for fire season and, you know, then we'll have semester in the wild and I haven't done that yet, so I'm intrigued to see how that all goes.
Jack Kredell: What do you talk about the animals currently at Taylor.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah, so when I first got the job here, I figured I had a dog and I had a cat, but I heard there were a lot of packrats. So I went down to the MC Paws Animal Shelter here in McCall, and I heard they're in McCall and I got a couple of kittens, and I've been here about one year and here is this guy.
Andrew Armstrong: He's a good one. So I got I have three cats. and they all do a good job of dealing with the mice. You know, you can either have lots of mouse traps or you can have cats. So I chose to have cats. There were a lot of pack rats, and I have a dog. Josey She's not here at the moment.
Andrew Armstrong: She's out at the vet, but she does a lot of work in kind of dealing with the pack rat. She also does a good job of establishing the relationship between us and like all the predators that are coming in here and kind of like letting them know that, you know, this is our place. And then we've got some chickens, got five chickens, which is great for me and several other people.
Andrew Armstrong: But, you know, if you have big groups, there's not quite as many eggs. right now I've got a huge hummingbirds getting in on the action of my hummingbird feeder. I realize that I'm kind of worried that if I stop feeding, then they might just all die off because I think have established a large population simply on sugar water.
Andrew Armstrong: And recently we rode in a horse and a mule. And so I'm kind of starting off a journey of learning how to use pack animals in the wilderness. And that's partly why I came out here, is to kind of get that experience. So that's kind of the domestic animals that are out here. You know, we have a lot of sheep coming down, especially in the winter.
Andrew Armstrong: The come down mostly across the across the canyon. There's a they have a wintering ground up in horse mountain and they come down here and use the legs. They can have a pretty periodic, you know, well time schedule where they can they come down to these kind of this here and then they go on up to a salt lake up high and they can just kind of have their out mountain lions.
Andrew Armstrong: They're probably all around all year long. But you can really you can be confident that they're around in the winter when you can see their tracks come through. Sometimes they'll slink right, right up through, you know, right through here and be real close to the cabin. And I'm always concerned about my cats. And I think that's for very justified reasons.
Andrew Armstrong: right now the bears are starting to come in a bunch. Here's just bear, you know, droppings all over, all over right now. And there you know, it's been a really good bury season. We had a long, long wet spring and they got a lot of currants and gooseberries because of that. So the bears are they just seem real happy right now.
Andrew Armstrong: And yeah, I mean right about now is they're having a herd of deer on the property probably like 20 with a resident buck in. It was Buck last year. That was the guy. And we'll just see who it is this year. And there's a real plethora of grouse on the strip and they kind of have been doing their little turkey dance where they get their tail feathers all up in a fan and they get their throats all bleeding and yeah, it's a good time of the year right now, but.
Jack Kredell: Also this year.
Andrew Armstrong: So the question was just talk about the history of start with the chair.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, who are you sitting in?
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah, so this is Dave Lewis's chair. I don't know a whole lot of history of it, but Dave Lewis. Sorry. Going back this is just Taylor's chair and he made it. I don't know exactly when he made it. It's a really good chair. when I first got here, I noticed that it. It actually had a broken rocker.
Andrew Armstrong: and so I ended up fixing it with some aluminum from an old plane. Just Taylor was kind of like he was a big game outfitter. He was kind of the one of the top. He was probably the top Bitcoin chief outfitter. Maybe not because he was so good. Just because the bitcoin sheep here is just huge. And also there were huge amount of them at that time.
Andrew Armstrong: but he, he, he ended up rebuilding the strip to make it longer, because it was pretty short at the time, but before he had rebuilt it, the main strip that he would use to resupply Taylor Ranch was Soldier Bar.
Jack Kredell: And that's, that's going to be too long. No, no to
Andrew Armstrong: yeah.
Jack Kredell: No. In this context, let's go with the chair, you know? Okay. Yeah. Let's go back to the beginning.
Andrew Armstrong: Starting with the Native Americans.
Jack Kredell: you don't have to go back that far. There are other people who talk about that.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah, I feel like I'd be much better at that. And various people.
Jack Kredell: Just,
Andrew Armstrong: I would just. Just Taylor.
Jack Kredell: For Jade.
Andrew Armstrong: They lost. yeah. She voters.
Jack Kredell: She'd be her campaign debut was at the packer.
Andrew Armstrong: for. Well, I'll just start with the Native Americans. You can, like, you can go as or as far you edit out as will show up.
Jack Kredell: So can you talk about the history of Taylor Ranch.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah. So, I guess this place has been inhabited for eons by the Sheepeater band of Shoshone Native Americans. And, you know, they were probably, you know, we will never understand the land as they as they understood it. You know, their ability to hunt and, you know, kind of live with the migration patterns of animals and the salmon, you know, is not something that probably will ever I mean, I don't think we'll ever be able to kind of get to that level of understanding.
Andrew Armstrong: And they were mostly peaceful people. There was, however, a basically some Chinese miners who were murdered on the middle fork and the murder was claimed to be done by sheep or Band of Schoen. And the US Cavalry started in a campaign of, you know, basically exterminating them and moving them and so they basically came down Big Creek and ran into some sheep resistance.
Andrew Armstrong: They I think there is only a few Sheepeater warriors and they, anyway, they ended up like basically missing the cavalry and forcing them up into the Vinegar Hills and, setting fire. And anyways, it was kind of a, it was a bit of a defeat for the cavalry and, but ultimately, you know, there was this campaign to deal with this beta band and, but one of the Packers that were resupplying the campaign was his name was Dave Lewis, and he had lived in Slate Creek, which is just down below Gainesville on the main salmon.
Andrew Armstrong: And, he kind of just realized it was really a beautiful spot and he came back here to this live and he originally just had one cabin up there. There was, there was this lodge and he built his home and, it's pretty bad. Anyways, Dave Lewis lived here. He was this, he just lived until he was like 90 or something.
Andrew Armstrong: Here he was. This was real outdoorsman. he was an out. He was, he basically had. No, I'm just kidding.
Jack Kredell: Don't to do this, I kind of like listening to you talk, and I kind of want to know, what your favorite thing about managing Taylor is.
Andrew Armstrong: You know, I, I, I just love the adventure, You know, like, in the middle of winter, it's. It's just me, and I, you know, I can go out and get on my skis and get on the big creek trail and kind of like, skip the cabin Creek and, and stuff and kind of hang out with all the wolves and, you know, you just tell your truth.
Andrew Armstrong: I'm like going up there. It's like this cold heart, cold, dark, hungry canyon. You know, there's only about, you know, late December, there's about one hour of sunlight that hits Taylor Ranch. And so it's and Taylor Ranch gets the most sun of anywhere in lower big creeks. So it's just there's no sun and all the you know, you're going along and all these predators, you know that you know that up there, all these predators are like looking down on you and they're watching you and you're skiing along with your dog kind of explorer and seeing what they're up to.
Andrew Armstrong: You know, you get on some wolf kill and you're you know, you just glad you're not a deer. But, I think that, you know, that's what I love is exploration. You know, there's so much to explore. And, you know, part of the reason I got some stock in here is just to help export. There's only so much you can do on your feet, in my impression.
Andrew Armstrong: I mean, especially if you're like a manager and you have to, like, come back every once in a while and. And also everything. I mean, everything from here is uphill and it's really steep. And so it's just like super hard to get to. But, you know, just going out, you kind of have this appreciation of of place. And I think that's pretty much what I like about being out here.
Jack Kredell: If you had any memorable animal encounters or experiences that that stand out to you from your time or to.
Andrew Armstrong: I think I think just kind of one of the I don't I don't really know exactly. I mean, I think that here one of the most special thing is seeing all the sheep. You know, they come down. They don't really seem to care too much about you.
Andrew Armstrong: Just kind of living in a place where there's, like, sheep coming on your property is pretty cool. And, but also the other thing I think is really cool is like the wolves, you know, you'll, there's a, there's a trail that goes up and it's goes up to these benches up there and, you know, the wolves will just be up on that first bench and they'll be just like looking down at you.
Andrew Armstrong: You hear them in the winter, You hear them probably, you know, at least twice a week in the night. And, you know, I go down there to feed the chickens and give them water and stuff with my dog. And my cats also join me usually. So I go on these like little walks with my dog and my cats and, you know, eyes going down there.
Andrew Armstrong: And there's there's wolves that they're looking at me and you're looking back at them and you're just, it feels so primal about it. And I think that's to me, that's kind of what wilderness brings, you know, is some sort of like primal relationship with like the, like, you know, game and place, yeah. So you know, that and that's kind of one of the reasons I like hunting lies is because you're, you're kind of in this like primal situation where you're like, senses are really attuned and, you know, it's, it's different than just going out for a hike.
Andrew Armstrong: So it's, yeah, you know, you're part of it out here. You know, you're, you know, the predators realize that you're out here in the game, you realize you're out here and you know, in some way you are, you know, the deer kind of they're not scared of you at all. And they I think they find sanctuary here. And, you know, I don't think they'll find things right here.
Andrew Armstrong: They're just maybe with this haystack that's here, they'll find sanctuary here. But, but, you know, I don't know. You're just part of it all.
Jack Kredell: So you think the wolves looking down from that bench see you as a as a fellow predator or less prey?
Andrew Armstrong: I think they're just mostly interested. You know, they don't recognize us prey. And I think they they're pretty smart. They recognize you as something that they don't really want to mess with you. No, I didn't. When I was doing all these, like, skis up and down the canyon, I never had any, like, sort of protection. And I didn't have, like, a pistol or anything.
Andrew Armstrong: And I think I had, like, an air horn or something sometimes, I think maybe. I don't know. The thing about wolves is they're probably they're not going to they're not going to go after you. I mean, I know they've there's been some students who have been followed by by wolves and, you know, I think the was just interested in like what you are interested in learning if you are prey you know, they're not sure right away.
Andrew Armstrong: it's not like a grizzly bear that is definitely something to be concerned about. But, you know, it's hard to like not think about what an apex predator they are when you're like skiing up in this canyon and you look at their tracks and they're these just, like, huge tracks. They look like bigger than a horse. And you're trying to convince yourself that they're not as big as a horse when you're going up, because you know they're not.
Andrew Armstrong: But they've got these huge feet, you know, and so you're following these wolf tracks going this way. And you're wondering, you know, in the back of your mind, you're thinking, should I be continuing to go this way? And then you get to a killing. You know, it's just like carnage. You know, there's like especially they tend to make the kills.
Andrew Armstrong: I mean, on the creek. So there's just like wolf tracks everywhere. There's just like blood everywhere. And you think to yourself, right? You know, I'm just I'm a very small deer, you know, I don't know what it is that you recognize about humans that makes them realize that we're not, you know, prey. You know, I certainly I'm most scared about my dog.
Andrew Armstrong: And I, you know, I, I worry about them going after my dog. And, you know, after talking with the fish and game biologist, it seems like it's pretty reasonable to be worried about my dog, even if I'm right there. But I mean, they're the wolves or wolves are king in the winter here, you know, mountain lions stay away from them.
Andrew Armstrong: So I think I went up to last year, I went up to a Cabin creek and I, I saw like, I don't know if it's a wolf or dog or wolf or a coyote up there, but I saw this like animal coming down and I just I turned around. What about I don't know. I just must be a wuss for them.
Andrew Armstrong: There's something primal about me. It says like, you know, I'm a small deer. So.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. One thing I'm fascinated about is that you have never tested in a cutting edge area of material science, and yet you are you are here in the deepest Idaho backcountry making a living. And I'm wondering why you chose this, you know? Well, like what? What drew you to this place?
Andrew Armstrong: Well, I guess my mom would probably ask that same question.
Jack Kredell: Would you say that?
Andrew Armstrong: I don't know. You know, I don't know. I would say.
Jack Kredell: I would say that it is a it seems to run in your family.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah. My mom would be probably, like, wanting me to become, like, a professional or professor or something like that. but yeah, I feel like a lot of ways this is like, who I am. You know, I've always felt a connection to the backcountry and also being out here. I think it depends what you do in science. You know, like, you know, progress for progress sake isn't necessarily like, I don't know, it's not that useful.
Andrew Armstrong: Like, you know, if you think of science out here at the wilderness, you know, yeah, there's a lot of very fancy scientific instruments that you can put out, but just, you know, putting them out for the sake of, like, collecting the data isn't like that important.
Andrew Armstrong: You know, I, I actually want to do, like, nuclear engineering and, I was applying for jobs in know, to do because, I mean, I've always cared about climate change a lot, and trying to figure out solutions to climate change. I was a solar installer for a long time. I worked, work done like designing and building energy efficient buildings, whether it was from, like for, like the military or just for, like, you know, buildings here in McCall.
Andrew Armstrong: but, you know, I, I don't know, I started to think that maybe solar, it just seemed like there's so many panels that you need and we use so much energy is like a society. And I just it just felt like maybe nuclear was the best option to of maybe is it like one of the only it was almost the easy option you know you've already gotten is this way of making huge amount of power without carbon or you know I think that people's fear of radiation is like it's justified in some ways.
Andrew Armstrong: It's also like, you know, we're scared of the unknown. And I think that a lot of I feel like I feel like the whole like nuclear industry needed to be like kind of shooken up and like, fixed. So but I applied for like nuclear engineering and I didn't have any, like nuclear materials science background and, you know, so I just, you know, took what opportunity was given to me.
Andrew Armstrong: And that was all about that. And I wouldn't change it. But anyways, I, I don't know. I also don't know. I like to live out and I know for the not really, I, I hear that the, you know, the landscape around Idaho Falls is like, awesome, but it's really hot there. And I just, you know, I'm, I grew up and McCall's beautiful.
Andrew Armstrong: It's hard to like. It's hard to leave. I have this ranch. I have you know, I have this beautiful ranch. And this is like, hard to like. Imagine moving to Idaho Falls for like, a job, you know? So here at Taylor House, I have a beautiful ranch. And, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think I don't know.
Andrew Armstrong: It's hard to say. We'll just see what happens in the future. But, ultimately, I'm here because it's some combination of science and ranching and both of those things of I really like things. It's like, drive me, you know, even, even though the science is isn't necessarily in my field, you know, I know how to fix a data logger and, you know, I know how to and how this equipment works and I can like I can just make it work.
Andrew Armstrong: And I think there's a lot of value to keeping all this equipment running. And, you know, I don't know, it's kind of it's both technical and no use in my mind, fix things and stuff. So that's about it. On that regard, I really went on a tangent, but anyways, I also just really love the nature. I love watching these little hummingbirds do their tail fanning and you know, I don't know, it's a good place to be.
Jack Kredell: I would say that your, your practical and technological expertise is why Taylor needs you, but I also get the sense that you need Taylor in some interesting way.
Andrew Armstrong: Well, I don't know. I don't really know what Taylor needs. I mean, well. Well, I, I do my best, but yeah, no, it's definitely a mix of, like, practical. You know, you're sitting out there moving irrigation and you're sitting there and you're, you know, connecting pipes and whatnot and, you know, doing like, I really actually like electrical work.
Andrew Armstrong: So I do a lot of, like electrical work and I have done a bunch of solo work in the past. So I understand like how as off grid systems work, but yeah, I mean, I took the job partly because I was, you know, my dad, you, his whole life was built on using team wheels to like, build backcountry projects.
Andrew Armstrong: So he built, I don't know exactly, but about 200 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail, he built a bunch of other trails as well. And growing up, you know, I remember you know, I just remember growing up and we were building trail and we were, you know, I summer run, you know, my dad would tell me to we're going to do a dynamite charge.
Andrew Armstrong: And we'd go and I'd go and run away and find some rock to hide behind or something like that. And so I don't know. I mean, in some ways, you know, just kind of honoring the family business, you know? Well, not just, you know, I don't really care about business, but just, you know, I feel I feel like I'm just kind of, you know, in this like modern world.
Andrew Armstrong: How do you how do you say, tree roots? And you've got to kind of be creative and or whatever. Know, you just got to take the opportunities that you've gotten here. I have an opportunity to work with Stark and kind of figure that out and see if that's something I'm interested in doing. So that's what I got, right?
Andrew Armstrong: So you should do this before I drink whiskey.
Jack Kredell: That's good. Yeah, that was really good. well, you're about to, manage a number of students who are coming to Taylor in the fall for a class for the law. And I'm. I'm wondering how you anticipate what this experience will mean to that.
Jack Kredell: What is the value of a place like Taylor for.
Andrew Armstrong: Your students.
Jack Kredell: Students and especially students who are doing this type of life in the backcountry?
Andrew Armstrong: Well, I know you know, I think that growing up, I took for granted what it meant to be back here and, I don't know. You know, I'll just say that when you're living in town or city or something like that, the days seem pretty short because you're so is this like there's always many things going on. You know, you're I don't know, you've got Internet, you're driving places, you're doing all these things and it's like super busy, busy way.
Andrew Armstrong: And you come back here and the days are really long. You know, you get up, you get up early, especially in the in the summer because it's hot and you get up early. And if you go to do anything, you're going to be in the morning. I don't know. I mean everything, but it's on for like in anyways.
Andrew Armstrong: What was the question again? What is it going to mean to the students? Yeah, well, one of the things I most appreciate is just going for like a hard hike or something like that. And, like, if you go for a hard hike, you know, you see a huge amount of country, you learn so much about the country, you see all these new places.
Andrew Armstrong: It's a huge amount of adventure. You know, there's always different things that happen that you're not expecting and you kind of overcome and, just figure it out and you just become really self-reliant. And, I think that anyone that comes here to some extent learns that. But if you're back here for a whole semester, you for sure going to learn that and just that, you know, endorphins you get after some experience that you're like just totally out of your comfort zone.
Andrew Armstrong: That's what I like. I like, you know, what I like the most is going out, getting lost, and then just kind of checking my way back until I find some place where I know where I am or something or, you know, just Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I think that's one of the things about a venture is you go out and you don't know what you're doing, and you just kind of figure it out.
Andrew Armstrong: So hopefully, you know, it's kind of like all the life, you know, you're just figuring things out, you know, life is always the world is always changing. You just got to kind of move on from that in the right direction, which is not always known, but be confident in like being okay and unknown places. And I think whatever your walk in life, you if you're comfortable being kind of in uncertain situations, it will benefit you.
Andrew Armstrong: And I hope that all students learn that. And you know, our intern, she she sure learned that and she had a great time back here. And, you know, she she kind of it was only like a month and a half, but it really changed her. And I think, yeah, that's kind of what I'm hoping. You know, it's just that type of skill.
Jack Kredell: Now is good because there is a good segment.
Andrew Armstrong: good confidence.
Jack Kredell: You know, no lessons.
Unknown: I don't really.
Jack Kredell: Have anything else, so let's hear something.
Jack Kredell: I said, I'm curious as to how you see yourself in. In the tradition of caretakers.
Andrew Armstrong: Well, I feel that there's a lot of weight on my shoulders. You know, I have this picture of Jess Taylor up there in the Taylor cabin, and here I am on his chair. You know, to me, I live like I live in their footsteps and, you know, in that way, you know, like this chair. When I first got here, it was broken like the rocker.
Andrew Armstrong: I don't know if I can see it, but it's it was like the chair was broken and, you know, just Taylor was renowned because he and what I mean, he's renowned for various things. But one of the things he did is he basically he repurposes old airplane crash at a soldier bar and he packed all this like airplane stuff so that there's various airplane stuff, you know, from the trapdoor to my attic to the smoker to his packed frame.
Andrew Armstrong: You know, that's all of these like aluminum aircraft parts. And, you know, I was just thinking, you know, what would just. Taylor how would he like his chair fixed? And I thought, you know, so I just found some more of that aircraft running around because there's parts all over and I can adjust fashions and sort of splice with this with aluminum from that old plane and, you know, rocks pretty good now.
Andrew Armstrong: But, you know, I don't know, it's kind of hard because, you know, just to well, first of all, you know, the Sheepeater Indians, how are you ever going to how you ever going to like, you know, understand the country as well as they did? How are you ever going to you know, we're not you know, I, I survive on the main plane that comes here, you know, and brings me groceries and stuff.
Andrew Armstrong: I don't survive on the sheep and the land. you know, Dave Lewis, he he knew this country he was back here for. It was like 60 years or something. He just he knew this country so well, and he and, you know, quite a hunter and, you know, but here I am in the Jess Taylor cabin, and I feel some sort of affinity to him because he's kind of he likes to build things that aircraft says.
Andrew Armstrong: I figure he's kind of a tinkerer, but, you know, he's used a I know he's a pretty strong personality who kind of expected the best out of people. And I guess I got this picture of him up there and every day kind of reminds me that, you know, I don't know, what would he do? though I think he was a really hard worker and he was pretty accomplished.
Andrew Armstrong: And then, you know, there were the Jim and Holly, and they're pretty much I think that that's one of the hardest things, like comparing myself to them, because they were both like professional biologists and they did such a good job back here. and their vision for Taylor was pretty compelling of but you know, they were both like these big game biologists, and it was also kind of a different time where, you know, you could just go out and, you know, fairly easily tranquilize an animal and do research on it and not have a huge amount of bureaucracy involved with that.
Andrew Armstrong: You know, so I mostly look towards like just Taylor and the Arkansans. there were also the guys who lived here and they don't inspire me. No, that's not true, but that's kind of true. So. Well, you can edit that part out.
Jack Kredell: I think. I think I think Jim Atkins in particular would be happy with the recent addition of stuff.
Andrew Armstrong: Well, I think they both would. I mean, Holly was pretty into me just getting even like an anything on here, you know? And, you know, Jim was like an amazing hunter, you know, the idea of taking elk with a primitive bow that he built is just like, you know, hopefully this year I will hunt with a primitive bow for deer.
Andrew Armstrong: I feel like I can get a deer. There's no way I could get milk. No way. But I might be able to get a deer. So that'll be fun.
Jack Kredell: You mentioned that you you read their book and you really liked it, and then you read it a second time and you also really liked it. And it was because you had been immersed in the landscape that they're describing in the book. It impacted you so much that the second time around.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah, yeah. So the first time I read it, you know, I knew Jim and Holly from before. I hadn't read their book, but I applied for this job and I heard I think I just assumed that I was going to get interviewed. And so I figured, you know, I better start with at least a little bit of literature about kind of what the job entails before I do the interview.
Andrew Armstrong: So, you know, I read it and I found it pretty fascinating. but recently, you know, I've been here for basically in two days it will be one year now that I've been here. And, you know, I, it's just I read the book again, and I. And I know all these places, you know, and he said that he's a mountain lion, like he had some juvenile mountain lions that they had released, and they were up in these cliffs past the lower pasture.
Andrew Armstrong: And they just you know, we're talking about how they're really steep and gnarly. And I mean, these are cliffs which I've always looked at. I've always been like, wow, why would I ever go up there? I mean, you know, I don't know. It's just like you start to realize that, you know, you just start to see, like, what these what these places that we're talking about are whether it's, you know, Monumental Creek and going up there or.
Andrew Armstrong: Yeah, I mean, just I don't know, it's just some sort of, you know, time you read it and, you know, all these places, it's it's a whole different experience. And you really see like, you know, what they're talking about. But yeah, I mean, I've always thought about these cliffs and I've kind of explored through them a little bit, but that's kind of one of the cool things about hunting or also just the research that you're doing is just, you know, you would you never choose to go after go up there unless you're like trying go up there for some reason, you know?
Andrew Armstrong: And, yeah, so, but you know, I mean dealing with their water sources and how they would deal with their creeks and stuff, you just find a lot of little tricks They didn't pick up on before because. Yeah, that was a very good answer. But me, I did. I did try.
Jack Kredell: No, that's good. This is a good, I think I mean, we've been talking for 45 minutes. We can wrap it up and I suppose, like, I would like, unless you get to say something that.
Andrew Armstrong: I don't know. I can read.
Cohn
Teresa Cohn: Okay. I'm Teresa Cohn and I have to think, yeah, the first time I was a tailor was through the McCall art or Science school. And so I was first there with a group of students, do you want a year? Probably doesn't matter. Let's see. It would have been 2011, maybe. No, that's not right at all. Sorry. That's totally not right. 2015.
Teresa Cohn: 2015. Yeah. And so I traveled in with a group of graduate students for the McCall Outdoor Science School.
Teresa Cohn: We would talk about it. Really want to know about it?
Jack Kredell: How? That was the first time you visited Taylor?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. I think I'm trying to think here. I think that's right. I think I flew in, in charge of a group of students straight off the bat. I'm pretty sure. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: From us.
Teresa Cohn: From us?
Jack Kredell: Yeah. And then later on, you. You were more involved.
Teresa Cohn: That's right. Yeah. So every in that became kind of instantly. I mean, I would say the first time I was it, too. I came from Montana, and even within a few minutes of landing at Taylor, I just had the sense of it. To me, it felt a lot like Yellowstone in terms of just the level, how the wildness felt very similar to me to being in Yellowstone and and from the get go.
Teresa Cohn: It was a amazing place to teach. And it was a place where, you know, you sort of have to, I think, just for me to teach, whether you really do monitor how much of yourself to put in and how much of yourself to remove, because I think if you're doing your job, the place is teaching, you know, and so you're just sort of facilitating this process of students really being able to deeply engage with a place that can be certainly inspiring but also incredibly agitating.
Teresa Cohn: Right. And so you're managing that for students in the sort of profound learning experiences that that can happen there when things are going well.
Unknown: What is the place teaching and.
Teresa Cohn: I mean, this is to me really a question of what's the what's the worth of this as an educational experience? And I think there are many things that you can learn at Taylor, but the rarity of it is that I think it's a place that's so different than a college campus in that it's integrated learning whether you like it or not.
Teresa Cohn: Right. And so you're learning all kinds of things. You're certainly learning about, you know, the science that we would intend to happen there. It was just happen to Taylor for years and years and years. But I'm also interested in all the other things are getting learned in the process, which is how to function in the community, what is designated wilderness, how do we inhabit this place?
Teresa Cohn: What is it like to inhabit a landscape with predators? How is it to move through the landscape differently? And I think all of these, you know, we might say in you know, in academic language, this is interdisciplinary, but I think it's more profound than that. It's a for asked students to be different in the world because that's what the place asks of them.
Jack Kredell: That makes me think of wilderness doctrine and.
Jack Kredell: With the exception of the station manager, Taylor is a place where Merrin is. But a visitor in the sense that Taylor is a place of comings and goings. Students arriving, students leaving, researchers arriving and leaving. And so I. I wonder what people take back from Taylor. Like what? What sticks with you when you leave Taylor? When you're far from Taylor?
Jack Kredell: Like, how. How how does Taylor stay with you, do you think?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, that's a good question. I might backtrack a little bit and say one of the things that Taylor does well is help us have personal experiences of time beyond our own geological landscape. Hydrological landscape, cultural landscape. Right. And so I think to when I'm at Taylor, there's so much to critique. A president still in that landscape that it reminds us that actually this time of comings and goings, it's brief.
Jack Kredell: What do you see when you when you step out the front door?
Teresa Cohn: Devil's so where we are Yeah the hay meadow obviously in front and you sort of feel everything to your back, which would be Pioneer Creek going up to Dave Lewis, that whole basin. I mean I sort of in my mind would see snow on Dave Lewis. and then the, the ridgelines wrapping around down to the Hay Meadow out front beyond the hay meadow, Big Creek, the bridge, certainly the vegetation along Big creek.
Teresa Cohn: Well the solar panels and the energy, the whole place. You know, I guess when you're when you're out at Taylor and you're sort of like monitoring the place, that's a really important keeping the energy up, you know, the Internet, where all that happens and then across to, you know, across the bridge and out to the benches, you know, that kind of like stack up.
Teresa Cohn: And then and then beyond that, you know, we like two summers ago, I guess, flew in to Cold Meadows and hiked maybe 20, 25 miles down. And so now, like this fast and some Jim and Hollywood have this more. It's all those people who have on their feet gone back with see have this thing sort of like layered beyond that.
Teresa Cohn: It has like layered memory of everything that we've seen, you know, back in there, some really amazing country. Once you get up high and can look around and then, you know, once you're up that high, there's sort of a geography of the middle fork and and the way that it curves around the salmon and sort of how that then expands into this great wilderness, you know, the Frank Church River of No return.
Teresa Cohn: Or. Not always, but I mean, most of the time trying to think of ever back there and not once. Once I was probably back there. Not responsible for a group of students. No, that's not true. That's not true at all. No. We went back when Megan Pete left the caretakers. There was a gap where we were filling in caretaking.
Teresa Cohn: So I was there probably for a month on and off, one break and in there, I was back during COVID for a month cleaning out the lab, all the stuff that had piled up over years and years and years, which was amazing and disgusting and yeah, all kinds of stories, you know, in all of the things that people left behind.
Teresa Cohn: and I went, I've been back on research trips too. Yeah. So with just researchers and not students. So actually it's interesting, but probably I've spent more time back there with that students than with now that I think about it.
Jack Kredell: Well, what was that like managing Taylor day to day as a as a caretaker?
Teresa Cohn: I mean, a short stint for me, right? We're saying, how long was I doing that for? I mean, like three weeks a month, you know, So relative to John Payton and, you know, Megan, Pete and all the folks that have spent time back there, mine was a very different experience as an academic, though, right? As a professor, it was really refreshing to tend to the basics, right, to really have to learn how to keep solar going, you know, And actually, now that I am reflecting on probably one of most profound experiences that Taylor was when Pete got hurt and had to be airlifted, life flighted to Boise.
Teresa Cohn: And we flew in, Mark and I and our daughter Young, she was little just like three flew in in the middle of winter. And, you know, if you really think about water, you have to really think about energy in the middle of winter. So that was in a way enlightening and refreshing because I think a lot of times, you know, especially when you're like a professor and not, you know, director, anything like that kind of protected.
Teresa Cohn: You're buffered from all of that. But it was great. I loved learning. I mean, yeah, learning how to move the airstrip, you know, I love that. And I mean, you have to look at the years. I will never look at the airstrip the same way again, like where the dense are, where the rocks are that you can't hit, you know, all the ways that you have to maneuver the mower when you're moving through that place.
Teresa Cohn: I, I, I really like that. You think about pack rats, you know, you think about it's a different relationship to that place that I found expansive. Yeah. And again, refreshing.
Jack Kredell: Did you ever have to knock ice off the water box?
Teresa Cohn: yes. Yeah. The slush. Ice. Yeah. That would get caught in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of Jim's, favorite pastimes. did he like to do that? I would think so. I think he hated it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a different place. And we were not there in the. In the deep, dark. You know, I can't remember when we flew in, but it was not, you know, it's nothing compared to what the winter caretakers do.
Teresa Cohn: You know, I have a healthy respect for people who, who spend the whole year there.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. I mean it would be like The Shining for me.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. I mean, I think that some of the folks in here in back there too, this is like the wildlife interaction. Amazing. You know, we were there in October. This is what'll happen when you touch worse than Gary if you let him start going. Like the stories, people just tell long stories about this place. There's a kill on the airstrip.
Teresa Cohn: When we were there, it was pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And winter, wintertime, it all comes closer in, you know, the fewer people there.
Jack Kredell: So can you talk about it? to kill. Is that what you're talking about?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. Yeah, It was a deer. It was a doe. We think about it. Yeah. yeah. So, one second, Mike. Doris. Like, probably not supposed to. She's my favorite pilot out there. He. He had flown in. We were there. I don't know if he's bringing in. No, he must've been bring. I can't remember who was coming and going at that time, but we got out of the plane and it kind of scratches his head like he does, you know, like messes with his hat.
Teresa Cohn: And he's like, Yeah, I think. I think I. I think I hit something down there on the airstrip. You might want to check it out, you know? And so, and so he flew off and, and we walked down and, and it was the gut pile of the steer had been, like, disemboweled, and the intestines were, like, strung across the airstrip, you know, and, and, you know, then it's like the tail or things like, what happened in.
Teresa Cohn: It's like this mystery that then you're trying to untangle and you're looking for. Is it a cat? Is it wolf? Is it, you know? And so then, you know, took us a while to put the pieces together and we're writing emails to Jim and Holly and like, you know, reporting in and sending pictures and wrote to Sophie Gilbert, who had her theory, which was some sort of combination of bear and cougar, because of the way that things were strewn around.
Teresa Cohn: Jim and Holly really went for Wolf, you know, and then you're watching, you know, and everything changes. Everything changed overnight. You know, the deer, you know, the like Taylor deer that would hang around and eat apples and all that. Like the Taylor pack. They were gone. Just gone. You know, there was one little fawn that was running around the farm, the mother that died, you know, just sort of calling and calling and calling, you know.
Teresa Cohn: But the it was quieter. It was this changed, you know, And then, you know, probably two days later, one of our students went up towards the fire lookout, actually by Rush Creek and came around the corner by the Sage flat. And this place was Wolf. Yeah. But then both of them, I think, you know, had like the sort of eye lock.
Teresa Cohn: And then they scattered the will ran, and then we saw more, Wolf, than, you know. So I think that's sort of the theory settled in on Wolf and and wolf kill on the airstrip and, you know, cold coldness stories about being down on the South Beach. And you'll see all these places in winter when a where he saw deer wolf interaction right there on the ice, you know.
Teresa Cohn: But yeah, a lot of that that big world comes in in the winter and yeah think shift and you get to watch that you know the dynamics of the whole place change.
Jack Kredell: Are there any other memorable wildlife encounters.
Teresa Cohn: yeah. Every time you go back there, there's something. Yeah. So I think especially, I think it's the ones that instantly jump into my mind. I don't know. Was thinking like otters and minks and. But twice down at the home site, Jim Kingery would call it like downstream, a little bit around the corner. First time I was like animals constraints, classes like teaching.
Teresa Cohn: And then the first time bighorn sheep came down right off the ridge, you know, right down towards us. So you know, you sort of sit and watch this happen. And I remember sort of saying quietly, is this is the first time any of you've seen Bighorn Sheep? And there's a young woman who's like, Yeah, and I've never seen an eagle either.
Teresa Cohn: In the it was like an eagle circling overhead, you know, So really profound experiences for students who haven't ever interacted with these kinds of beings before. And a bear. Another times is different Year Bear came down across the river and which kind of helped class with this bear like rooting around and flipping rocks and things like that. So it's yeah, you know, and again like that, it sort of shifts everything about the way that you're interacting to have that happening around you as part of your experience, your learning experience.
Teresa Cohn: And then wolf, bighorn, you guys also, Yeah, lots and lots of wildlife interactions with students. And I and you know, again, this is not Jim in Hollywood have so many so many, you know, and I'm trying to think, you know, mine are like seven years of working with students back there. That's relative to the amount of time terminology I've spent.
Teresa Cohn: Like, that's nothing. You know, it's nothing. But every single time that you're there, you know, it's not like you count on it, but something happens.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it's it's interesting hearing you.
Jack Kredell: Talk about Taylor. I don't know. You.
Jack Kredell: You talk about Taylor as though, the people associated with.
Jack Kredell: Taylor are part of its physical environment. Like.
Jack Kredell: It feels like in your head. Gym hallways. Yeah. Called in gym. Part of its physical geography.
Teresa Cohn: It's a community. Yeah. Yeah. Can you say more about that? Yeah. I mean, I think the people that stick around the Taylor pretty committed to that place. And even if you don't overlap with some you since that community it's like it's like wandering into the orchard when you're back there and they're these trees and you know somebody planted them you're grateful that somebody planted them.
Teresa Cohn: You don't know who it is. I can make some guesses in this case, like a handful of people that could have done that or added to them or whatever. But you know that it's a community that's larger than your now. And and yet to me, it seems very part of the landscape. Janet Pope, she spent a ton of time back there, you know, and then all the people that I can't name that I know who've come and gone.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's very much a community. And you know, more than that to me, I probably have different take on this than somebody like Benjamin, Holly and Colden. And, you know, coming from a different background, I'm not like a bighorn sheep scientist or anything like that, but their commune, their communal research projects that I would say, whether they're named and recognized or not, I love some Colden's work on thinking about how dynamic that place is and how it's dynamism is linked to its diversity biodiversity, especially the stream ecology world of things.
Teresa Cohn: You know, in the photo work we were thinking about change in a different way. But I think there's a common conversation in the Taylor community that's about change and whether you're coming from humanist perspectives, social scientists, or whether you're a stream ecologist, that's a great place to really engage with changing landscape, you know, whether it's the change that's necessary to maintain that kind of ecosystem, whether it's climate change.
Teresa Cohn: On top of that, the share who he's working with or Mary Ingles or whether it's the change, you know, in the last hundred years, it's a place in which we as a common community can think about that as a body of questioning, you know, that I think is robust in really what we would call and, you know, interdisciplinary or integrated ways, you know, across the landscape.
Teresa Cohn: And I think Taylor has huge potential for that kind of work in a creative research community. Water I talked to Maurice a little bit about this, too. You know, your passion, salmon they're incredible stories about connectivity from Taylor to the Atlantic, you know, and the ways in which these fluid ecosystems kind of connect communities across it. I just think there's a lot of a lot of potential to keep building around some of these research themes and like go back in mind some of the research that's been done to to see like what part covers the common conversation has dropped off for ten years and we need to pick up again, you know, no matter what
Teresa Cohn: the discipline is.
Jack Kredell: Taylor as a site of change, is a common theme that comes up in these interviews. Yeah. So it's so interesting because it does kind of go against this idea of wilderness that you get from reading the doctrine. I guess.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: As this place that is untrammeled by man, that's kind of.
Teresa Cohn: Eternal and wild. Yeah, It's so dynamic. You know, anybody who spent time there, you know, it's such a dynamic kind of agitating farm and big ways, you know, it's like, you know, in. Right, that memory of mine was not even then about like landslides, which you always hear when you're back there after a rain event or, you know, whole river changing colors overnight because of the a rain event upstream or, you know, there's things that are constantly changing.
Teresa Cohn: The one that I was thinking about is Holly's story about the fire ripping through there. You know, it is a it's a very dynamic place. You don't have to spend that much time there to really feel the intensity of that kind of change. Yeah, it's a and I think again, like around here in the West, when we're talking about change, it's like who's moving in what?
Teresa Cohn: Houses are getting built. It's a different scale and pace of change. It's different kind of change. And Taylor allows a unique kind of lens into that dynamism and what kind of almost like scales of change, what's the continuum of change? What kinds of change are we talking about? It's incredible place to engage with those questions.
Jack Kredell: What do you think we can learn from from that experience and those questions? I mean, as students.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, I mean, I am a geographer. And so, I mean, people have all kinds of questions about the Watson house and for me it's a where like the fundamental question is, where are we? Where are we? What is this place? Where are we? You know, and and really, I think it helps us know where we are and who we are in the where we are.
Jack Kredell: That's a question that has long obsessed me also; When when are we?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. This is also a good question. This is a good question. And I mean, here's another thing about to ask. Go back to like the time conversation, just like one of my favorite things to think about right now, just space Temporalities is her sort of like sense of this thing. Well, maybe I've already said this, Taylor Really?
Teresa Cohn: Because we are stepping and this is very wilderness. See, we're stepping out of our sort of day to day containers. We can think we have the capacity to imagine other kinds of times and experience other kinds of times and other kinds of spaces, you know, the way that the ship to do a deal of time speaks to your time isn't that distant.
Teresa Cohn: My gosh, it's a blink compared to geologic time, Right? The kind of work circuits he's doing. If you talked to her, I think her ground water work is amazing. So trying to understand how long the groundwater is sitting in these underground reservoirs. So the time in which it goes into the ground comes up in Springs, it's a totally different kind of time.
Teresa Cohn: Right. And the time with like the clock is water as it moves underground. It's an incredible way of experiencing time in a place like that. And again, you can access these like you were expanded in your thinking by the community of research, right? So another thing we should be doing at Taylor, supporting a robust community of research, right.
Teresa Cohn: In this means and Colton would say this too, and I would say those dinnertime conversations critical that campfire that sitting there critical right. That's where this information gets changed. That's why I can say, you know, it's our gods, these stone unicorns doing right. And then we have this common conversation and the more diverse the people are around that campfire, I think the more interesting it gets.
Teresa Cohn: You know, even with outfitters factor, they know a ton, right? The people that walk along that trail, that's a part of the community of not necessarily Taylor but Big Creek that's its own community too. Right. And Taylor interacts with that community. But but it also is its own community.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. That in a way, Taylor has long been a kind of campfire.
Teresa Cohn: But yeah.
Jack Kredell: It's always an interest to human beings. Yeah, I mean, for as long as humans were in that region, thousands of years humans have been drawn to that specific location of. Taylor. Yeah. and have been having conversations like that right in the same space. I wonder what it is about Taylor's physical, but also its immaterial geography that that tends to hold people there.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. You know, I bet, you know, it would be interesting. So it sounds like you're asking this geography question to of like, what do you see when you walk a day? So you have people orient themselves. I don't know if everybody orients themselves from Dave Lewis. I bet people I bet most people would talk about water, you know, and the streams and what's happening.
Teresa Cohn: But you know Cliff Creek coming down pioneer Creek, Fish Creek, it's like the place where water comes together. Yeah, Yeah.
Jack Kredell: It's it's a confluence.
Teresa Cohn: It's confluence. It's confluence. That's right. That's a great metaphor for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: So we can. We can wrap up soon.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah. Yeah, I'm good.
Jack Kredell: What kind of future do you do you want to see for? Taylor?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I can give you the easy version first that I think the best stewardship of that place is really supporting that creative community in a very sort of not simple financial way. Making sure Taylor has enough money to operate year round and support barebones people to maintain it. You know, because that's what the creative community will rely on.
Teresa Cohn: And then a step up from that for a lot of us to be thinking like, I think what are the things that we ought to be working on or what are the common conversations and what are the critical issues of our time that can only be answered and engaged in it? Taylor and kind of building that conversation because those conversations are happening, but I think we could structure those in more productive ways.
Teresa Cohn: Part of the process that you're involved in it, these great for bringing up conversations, you know, and making people sort of think about it more deliberately. So I think all of that's good. It's a fantastic educational facility. So it's expensive. You know, again, it's the nuts and bolts finances of like it needs finances to be able to make that work.
Teresa Cohn: It's a really important place for students and not just in the sciences. And I think, you know, like throw in a little gendered piece of this, do the vast majority of the students who have landed there in the past few years, through my experiences it might that other field campus and Taylor's there women you know who are signing up for semester in the wild who are there with most program programing too.
Teresa Cohn: So I think you know really thinking about really looking at the dynamics of Taylor, how it's being used, who's interested in it, making sure that we're creating these interdisciplinary holistic conversations on the instructor level and on the student level, really looking at those dynamics and making sure they're equitable and honoring who's in the room. I think that's really important.
Teresa Cohn: It has to be part of the next step of Taylor for it to function in its best way. And I think Taylor had to be thinking about what I've kind of already said this, you know, climate change, if I were to name themes, right, change in general. But really climate change, I think that's an important conversation. Water connectivity, those things, building them out.
Teresa Cohn: I think it could be a very rich conversation. And what else do I want to say about what I think too should be? Having said all of that, Taylor always has and needs to continue to be careful about expansion, right? There's a carrying capacity for that place and there's real impact with airplanes flying in and out. So I know, you know, Jim and Holley and mules and thinking about what our footprint is there and what it ought to be.
Teresa Cohn: There is also a critical part of the conversation, and I know it's a part of the financial conversation, too, but we can't lose track of our impact on that place because we need the finances to be able to support the creative community. Right? I think there's a real delicate balance in all of that. And then the other thing is what you're doing right now, we need to we need to make sure we're telling the stories that exist there.
Teresa Cohn: I mean, Maurice, Gary, Jim, Holley like there's so many stories that need to be part of that community conversation. So I think building connectivity between the community that's there over time would be invaluable to the future of Taylor too. And that's part of the work that you're doing, which I think is really important. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: And I think it would be important to bring in outsiders.
Teresa Cohn: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that this is exactly right. It shouldn't be that insular. And, you know, I think there's a lot of push you vital like, you know, build scholars and get scholars in there to just I can see a million reasons that Taylor would be a site for scholars from all over the place. You know, students from all over the place, too.
Teresa Cohn: I think you're exactly right. There's no need to be insular in me. In growing that creative community is really important as well. Yeah, exactly.
Jack Kredell: Jim really likes the idea of an artist in residence.
Teresa Cohn: What do you think of that? I love it. I love it. Yeah. Artist in residence, writers in residence, cartographers. And rather than it's Jack, you know, like be creative about and in some ways to the way that I think we might go about a conversation like that is okay what's the theme Don't talk about connectivity. Okay then what can bring Let's bring someone in who can inform us in a new way about how to think about this architecture.
Teresa Cohn: I don't know. You know, even putting people that you might not imagine would be there, You know, I think that's the kind of thing that generates dynamism, you know, to match the places.
Jack Kredell: So, yeah, I was just about to say that. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I think we got some good stuff. unless there's anything else.
Unknown: That you want to say that I'm probably unable to promised.
Teresa Cohn: With that.
Jack Kredell: Any beefs?
Teresa Cohn: Beefs about Taylor?
Jack Kredell: No, no. I mean, like, if there's something you want to get off your chest.
Teresa Cohn: no, everybody. I mean, is part of that place, too. It's like you care about it. You care about it deeply. If you care about it too much, maybe too much. But it's just like, yeah, everybody, sort of everybody who's attached. Taylor I guess there's some there's heartbreak involves, you know, and there's always a sort of like really everybody you talk to like a clash between like a cumbersome institution and wilderness, you know, like how the how do those things come together?
Teresa Cohn: It's always going to be problems with how that works, you know, So so I think there's inevitable. yeah. Beef. Yeah, expensive. So that things.
Jack Kredell: Are actually very tightly woven together. Wilderness and large institution.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's very true. That's very true. Yeah. And, you know, there's, there's the, like, the big wilderness capital W wilderness and little W wilderness, too. And maybe it's the little W wilderness that's different, you know, that sort of on its own terms a little bit more and that it's on some time frame.
Teresa Cohn: It's, you know, sort of doing its own thing, Internet, you know, Internet back. There's I'm sure everybody, you know, you talk to would have a strong opinion about how that should be done better, where the TV should live, all of that kind of stuff that you're always going to have this really clash between those worlds. what was I going to say?
Teresa Cohn: Anything else about Taylor? Just. Just know. Just like I a not relevant, but I dream about it at least three times a week. Yeah. You know, this is again, it's like the it's just there in all of its iterations, you know, it's kind of a place that I want to honor about Jim and Holly and sort of having spent the amount of time they did back there, just like where it lives in them and how it manifests and your dreams.
Teresa Cohn: Are you just there at. Taylor Yeah, all sorts of things happening, airplanes and yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, Yeah, all sorts of iterations. Yeah.
Unknown: Do you remember any specific dream?
Teresa Cohn: I mean, I can remember a million things from, like, you know, or like the air. Not quite the same, but it's still an airstrip or. Yeah, yeah, not, I wouldn't say like, no, it sounds like all kinds of iterations. None of them like the real actuality, you know. But yeah. And so there's something that, there's something this sort of like, you know, permanently stays with you, at least for now.
Teresa Cohn: Maybe not permanently, but for now, for sure. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Or. Or your just remote viewing.
Teresa Cohn: Maybe. Maybe, you know, Do you know what I see? Yeah. I'll have to go back to see. Yeah. Taylor sticks with you. I'm going to say something else to you about Taylor. You can talk to the pilots. I'd like to talk to them like Doris. Let me right there, and then I. I mean, want to. But they've seen so much, you know, from the air.
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, I have a great deal of respect for this. Both It's my first Mike Doris, yeah.
Jack Kredell: And who was that? The hydrologist you mentioned.
Teresa Cohn: Sara Godsey. Sara God. Yeah. She's an icy cold and can link you to her.
Jack Kredell: Because I'm friends with,
Unknown: A hydrologist getting her Ph.D. right now.
Jack Kredell: Named Grace Pepin.
Teresa Cohn: she's with Mary. Yeah. Parallel research, parallel work in. And Mary and Sara have linked. But, you know, it's not like they have joint projects. It'd be great if they did at some point. There's huge potential for really interesting water work. I mean, there's already a ton of really interesting water work out there, but like large scale sort of, yeah, cool fire, too, you know?
Teresa Cohn: Yeah, it could be really interesting. Fireworks work out there, too.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. I don't know of any fire ecologists.
Teresa Cohn: Know we're trying to. You know who. Yeah, hold on. The person who we were trying to. Who's interested in working there and has worked in Frank before is, is, is at BSU. I can all I can come up with a name, but maybe later.
Colden
Colden Baxter: My name is Colden Baxter, and I'm a professor at Idaho State University. I'm principally an ecologist of streams and rivers and I but I also study the linkages between water and land, and in recent years have taken to doing work that links the social sciences and ecological sciences and that are to better understand the relationships between people and rivers.
Colden Baxter: And I got started working back here at the Taylor Branch at this field station. I actually came here. I kind of like this story because it is a little emblematic before I even moved into my office at Idaho State University. My predecessor, Wayne Mitchell and I, within days of my arrival at ISU, came back in here and made a visit.
Colden Baxter: And it was actually it was like November. But I was so excited about the prospect of getting to know this place and beginning to do science here and connect what I was thinking about doing to what he had done for decades back here in the Middle Fork Salmon River Country, and specifically out of Taylor Ranch. And big part of my enthusiasm for that, that job and my excitement at getting that opportunity had to do it with this place and the prospect of making that connection.
Colden Baxter: And that was the fall well of 2004. And so I've been coming back in here regularly ever since then, not only for to carry on the long term monitoring that documents Al and his students began in the late 1980s, but also to collaborate with and work with an array of undergraduate and graduate students who use this as a base for doing various research projects.
Colden Baxter: So for me, the continuity of the long term monitoring and consistently having students working here has meant that this place and the surrounding river drainage has become a real home space for me and for my community, both my family and the community of people that I work with and ecology is the science of home like that's actually what the word originally means, right?
Colden Baxter: And so I think of places like this as particularly meaningful context for doing doing ecological research, because come to think of it as a home place and so and, and so the science we do here and the culture, the community of people that interacts here is, is rich and and deep. And it extends back before my having even visited this place.
Colden Baxter: So that's a little bit of the back backdrop, I guess for for why this place is why how I'm connected to this place and why it's special to to me and to my family.
Jack Kredell: You're you're pursuing a study of home in a place that has become a home. and I. I noticed while observing your, your students today that that science scientific production for you is both, it's. It's also a family affair, as much as it is a scientific one. And there's this interesting overlap between personal and professional worlds that is not often there in science.
Jack Kredell: And and I was wondering, well, while watching you guys, like, you know, maybe this is good for science, actually, maybe maybe the data is is enriched because there's this deep personal connection to the place where it's being understood or collected.
Colden Baxter: Yeah, I think so. I have learned a lot from Sadako Mitchell, who just passed away a couple of years ago, became a very important mentor to me and friend and, and especially in this place, that sort of multi-generational potential for our community of scientists became was, was realized. But also he was someone who always involved his family in the science that he did, and that resonated with me as well.
Colden Baxter: And I and so I began by bringing my family along and work that we were doing here, you know, in a field station field station context in general, I think lend themselves to that sort of, kind of familial and home connection to place, which is often lost or, or at least is not realized in other, in other contexts.
Colden Baxter: And that's part of what makes them special. That's definitely true of this place. And I do think that that is a, that is a the science of ecology and, you know, natural sciences in many respects. I feel like our are still very much maturing, evolving and maturing. Ecology is still kind of a young science, but one of its real potential, I think, lies in the possibility of it's becoming a place and community of rooted science, and that is that connects and investigates connections between people and landscapes and so I don't know, this is a bit of a, this is a complicated place to do that because it's wilderness which is meant to be a
Colden Baxter: place where people are excluded right in you go to be away from the influences of people and yet the place is, it's a place that we connect to deeply as a community. And so I, I don't know. I work closely with partners with the tribes in Idaho, particularly the Shoshone Bannock Tribes. And over the years I've also learned from my partners that they're my collaborators, that this sort of vision of, of ecology for a variety of reasons, resonates more with them as well.
Colden Baxter: And I, I respect and appreciate their perspectives on that and I think there's a lot to learn from from that. Ecology actually has a lot to learn from thinking about and casting the work that we do in that sort of context that doesn't separate, we don't separate separate ourselves from the place that we're that we're we're working to understand right?
Jack Kredell: Maurice Hornocker, when I interviewed him, said that, a good, a good scientist should, should feel or a good field scientist should feel their, their object. And it, what you're saying makes me think that in a sense it's difficult to apply the human sensory apparatus to, like remote sensing data. For example. it's hard to personally connect to it.
Jack Kredell: and on the opposite end of the spectrum, this is a landscape that we're, we're a river scape, as you've called it. Yeah. Then you've gotten to know very intimately over time, parallel to the, the, this long term dataset that you produced. And so I feel like it it allows you to feel that data in a way that adds actually rigor, scientific rigor to the set.
Jack Kredell: Sure. Do you think that's true?
Colden Baxter: Sure, yeah. And having spent a lot a lot of time, like with my head stuck under cut banks and that kind of thing, and behind boulders in Big Creek and, you know, watching fish in the middle of the night and, you know, and in all of these years of close observation, I mean, that like, for example, a remote sensing data set may still actually be really valuable.
Colden Baxter: But it's often the case that, like that I can, because of this experience and these connections and intimate knowledge of the place, I can look at a different data set like that and, and I'll see or notice things that maybe other people wouldn't play opposite is true to. Sometimes people who are strangers to a place will notice things that folks who've been there for a really long time haven't.
Colden Baxter: And that's a reason why. That's one reason I really value, of course, bringing students here. Students see and ask questions about things that I might not have ever really even considered. Right? So I love that sort of constant introduction of new people to this this situation. It's not just like my family comes in here every year and we all do exactly the same thing.
Colden Baxter: There's a there is that core like role that that rope of tradition, but it's always like the cast of characters is shifting that, you know, what people are paying attention to and asking questions about is shifting. And that's healthy for the science. Of course.
Jack Kredell: What do you think your your undergraduate students take away from these experiences of just, you know, bushwhacking along, cutting all this stuff? Yeah. That, you know, they seem observing them. They seem really happy and content to hike in here and then to do this difficult work.
Colden Baxter: Yeah, well, definitely for some of them it's, some of them have a lot of outdoor experience already, and they are learning then to become field scientists. Really, which to be a field scientist involve us being cultivating a kind of comfort in the, in that in oftentimes harsh and conditions so that, and so that you can focus on that science, not on just like just on your own personal comfort or your like your next meal or whatever your, your gear, equipment or whatever it might be.
Colden Baxter: Right? But you have to develop a an ease with being in the in the backcountry, for instance. And some of them are they're all at different stages in that. And you know, but for some this is the first time that they've ever walked that far, for example, and that sometimes that rocks their world and but sometimes sometimes that's kind of it can be a little rough, but it's generally yeah I mean it's a life altering experience changes people's perspectives to and changes the way they might think about themselves and their own potential in some cases.
Colden Baxter: I had a one of my first graduate students working here and we developed a pretty ambitious project. By the end of her project, we estimated she walked the equivalent from here to the ocean in back to the and was like, you know, I was that was really impressive for, you know, on all counts. Right? But I know that for her that became a part of her identity.
Colden Baxter: And she in the sort of her ability to approach, you know, all kinds of other challenges that she experienced in her life in the years since then, you know, And, so that's a roundabout answer to your question, but that is to say, there are all kinds of different, every students different in terms of their experience of this place.
Colden Baxter: And the undergraduate students are usually only here for, you know, short periods of time or it, whereas the graduate students get a deeper dive usually and in terms of their, their experience of the landscape and nonetheless, it also sets a kind of frame of reference for them. Many of them will go on to be natural resource scientists and managers and to spent time in wilderness in and along a wild river affects your frame of reference.
Colden Baxter: It's a frame of reference that's vanishing. And and without that, you know, I, i, it concerns me that, that we might, that natural resource managers might lack that perspective. so, but it's also a really rich social experience, right? This is probably what you have to do these days to have a group of people put away their phones for a while and interact like really interact with one another, pay attention to their surroundings, really interact with one another.
Colden Baxter: They tend to really to connect to with one another and with the place. And that becomes a kind of lesson in itself, right. About, you know, how to make that happen elsewhere at places other than Taylor Ranch and the Wilderness. But at least I like to think so. I know it's been that way for my daughters.
Jack Kredell: So yeah, it's funny that or it's ironic that that one of the few places where this can occur in our modern world is a place in which we've we've decided by excluding ourselves.
Colden Baxter: Yeah, that's what I was alluding to that earlier, is that's strange. And, you know, like I mentioned, my collaborations with tribal partners and I feel like honestly, our vision of and the way that we think about wilderness is something that is still maturing and changing and, as is our relationship with nature in general. I'd like to think that it has, that it will kind of continue to mature.
Colden Baxter: Yeah, right. Yeah. And, big important steps along the lines include, you know, seeing and cultivating relationships between yourself and, and places like, like this and not just like, experiencing them as a playground, a recreational kind of playground or as some kind of, like, purely utilitarian, thing either way.
Jack Kredell: But yeah, a place full of non-human others.
Colden Baxter: Yeah. And that in a place that where you can and should be thinking about sort of reciprocal relationships. Right. And that's, those are idealistic I suppose perspectives, but certainly some of my hope in a way for this sort of thing, the context lends itself to thought to people spending time thinking and including myself. Right? So I'd like time to actually, yeah, think.
Jack Kredell: I know you're probably getting hungry. Maybe just one more. One or two.
Colden Baxter: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: What what would you like to see for Taylor's future?
Colden Baxter: Yeah, well, first of all, I hope that it will continue to be a field station and because there have been times in the past where I was worried that it would not, that, that it wouldn't continue and that I'm really pleased that the University of Idaho seems to clearly value the place now. And I, I guess what I would like to see for its future is that, people who are responsible for its management and decision making associated with it are consider carefully what its actual strengths and and real areas of potential are because there's always a you know, there's a little bit of a tendency to imagine that a place could be turned into
Colden Baxter: something that it's not or that it's never been, and that this place has gone through several iterations of that kind of, quote, visioning that wasn't really very well informed, frankly, from my perspective by its history or it like lived experience here, lived experience here can be used to inform like and like the planning and goals and strategies. And I think it's I'm a little bit biased along these lines, but I really think that there's a lot to be learned from the model that I was describing of sort of building this, that this, this role of tradition and and history, but also always having new people coming and going.
Colden Baxter: Right. And but so how and that is part of the its, its tradition is that they're from its beginnings as a science outpost. It has its it's focused on work that especially could only really be done in this sort of context. And as explored this commonly. Well hello! This combination of the sort of a long term monitoring and then, you know, creative, you know, short term studies, superimposed on that.
Colden Baxter: I don't think it's a great place to like try to in making do what? It's not like I remember a visioning a time at one point where it's like, what we really need is get some really smart scientists here from like Princeton and, you know, other people who are like really high powered researchers, right? So there was that theory phase and then there was a phase of like and that didn't pan pan out.
Colden Baxter: It was like and during that time it was kind of frankly, it was like for Doc and myself and others, it was like, what are we chopped liver? I mean, so to speak. So but and then there was another phase was like, what we really need to do is have this be this wilderness classroom that we bring people from all over the world here.
Colden Baxter: And, and especially like really wealthy East Coaster is frankly right. And you know, some of that, you know, there are elements to each of those that maybe could work out here. But those things have come and gone right and with varying levels of success. They're not really a sustainable model for this place. and neither one of them actually, is my, my perspective.
Colden Baxter: It's not a place to host really large numbers of people. It's a place to to sustain rich experiences for small for individuals and small groups of people doing science and also providing context for interaction. And with respect to the latter there, although I appreciate that modern amenities of the place, I think we probably gone about as far as we should along those lines.
Colden Baxter: I prefer in general when I have my students back here, we keep busy and we don't spend a bunch of time. I don't like going into the lab and finding like the whole group of students watching Netflix or something like that. That's not what we're here for. You know, the Internet needs to be used. It's for should be for things like important communications and so on.
Colden Baxter: Just because you're here for, you know, a longer period of time doesn't mean that you should suddenly switch over to like a lifestyle that like importing a the lifestyle of that kind of thing. Like, I don't know, that seems to sort of cheapen the experience a little bit. I'm a little bit of a Luddite when it comes to that kind of thing, too.
Jack Kredell: So, well, based on what you've been saying, it it feels like a place that's perfectly situated for the contemplation of the very small scale and the larger scale and the geological. Yeah, you know. Yes. as well as.
Colden Baxter: That, you got to get out in it too. I mean, I've noticed some patterns here In the last May, when I first started working in here, it was a lot more common for students to really be like a fairly decent number of students to be out every day covering territory, right? And then for a period of time, the pattern was kind of the exact opposite.
Colden Baxter: People would come back in here and hang out, but the trails looked like nobody had even been on it. Right. And like, what do you do in watching Netflix? Get out there, get out into this landscape and, you know, this is a base from which to experience the the wilderness. It's not in and of itself the wilderness. So, you know, that's a little bit of critique commentary, I guess I, I, I.
Jack Kredell: Know you'll be happy to know that Grace Pevin kicked my ass when I checked on this, but that was probably a five mile bushwhack, Maybe a thousand and a half. Yeah. Elevation. You know.
Colden Baxter: That's more of the style of. I mean, this place. I'm not saying that's the only kind of person that can, can should be here or that thrives here. But, I mean, we need to facilitate that kind of thing, because that was a whole skill set and a set of abilities that is underdeveloped and becoming more rare. Right? And so Taylor has a unique I mean, if it's Taylor Wilderness Research Station, part of what you're training are people who have what it takes to conduct work in fairly challenging environment like this.
Colden Baxter: And, you know, I think that's, that's still something that the world and science needs are people with those, those skills and abilities. So I'm glad that I'm glad to hear it and, and to see that that's still being nurtured.
Jack Kredell: But and then lastly, you often mentioned Dr. Wayne Mitchell, Doc, as you call him. can, can you just talk about the importance of his work to you and his work to this place?
Colden Baxter: Yeah, I can. So Doc was one of the world's leading experts on the ecology of streams and rivers, and he, Yeah, he. He could his career could have taken any number of different directions. But in the late 1970s, early 1980s, he really sort of discovered doing field science in the Middle Fork Salmon River country, and he got hooked on it himself and it became a part of his and his family's lifestyle.
Colden Baxter: And so and it became a home place for for him then, so much so that in he not only did sort of traditional stream ecological research, but then when he retired, he turned to focusing on what had been sort of a hobby for him in the years prior to that. Investigations into the history of human history, recent human history of of the drainage and which he he wrote up and self-published a couple of books on that on the topic.
Colden Baxter: And so I bring that up because the ecological work that he that he did in year and his students did in here was sort of was informed by that this continuity and like, year after year coming in here and the deep knowledge of the landscape, its geography and like, you know, this stream I remember, you know, three years ago, you know, this log was not here, it was over there, right?
Colden Baxter: And you could add it. We might have the data for that, but it would also be in your memory and in your mind. And that and that. Like I say, that that experience, that lived experience of these places was part of what then? Not only made the science, he was doing excellent, but it contributed to, the sort of the there was also this group culture community first thing.
Colden Baxter: I mean, when he passed away, his students came from all over the country to a memorial that we had, and almost every one of them told stories, especially of their time, whether their thesis research was done back in here or not. Almost all of them had stories to tell of their relationships with him and with one another that came from their time coming in here every summer to to help with the long term monitoring work and I think that says something that, you know, those were really you know, those were influential experiences, powerful, rich experiences for them as they've continued to be for for my students and my family.
Colden Baxter: And so, yeah, the science that he did just a little bit of commentary on that. wow. Cat, tell you what I really got a little claw. A little just a little bit of claw. So I think some of the really important science that that Doc and his students did in here and elsewhere, like Yellowstone, too, but were then key to contributing to a change in the way that scientists and society views the natural dynamics of an environment.
Colden Baxter: And they made nature's dynamics in general like and wildfire is a classic example of that, something that we imagine and experience as a kind of catastrophe. And it certainly has those elements to it. This place is absolutely you know, it's a great example of it, right? But ecologically, the lesson of studying wildfire in this place overall has been that, wildfire and dynamics like landslides and debris flows and in in a big complex connected, free flowing river network like this is something that, you know, it's a good thing.
Colden Baxter: It's a part of, it's a part of the home. It's, it's a characteristic of the home, right? And not like, you know. So his work helped us see that like a static condition for nature was not a static and a neat kind of park-like condition for nature is not actually the way things work, right? Nature like a healthy stream and river is a messy one and one that is changing and dynamic all the time.
Colden Baxter: Right. And his science helped contribute to that sort of, you know, maturing ecological perspective. And I learned from him and others of his generation that those types of lessons and continue to try to use this context to learn more about that dynamism itself, essentially.
Jack Kredell: Doc also seems to have pioneered this ethic or method where you, you, you know, when a chair has been moved in your home.
Colden Baxter: You know. Yeah. That log used to be there, now it's over there or it's gone or, you know, this boulder, you know, was only you could only just see the top of it. And now, like, now look at it. You can see the whole thing, right? But it took a decade for that to happen. And so, yeah, being, you know, paying close attention to things of that sort and and gathering data so as to essentially be in a position to notice when that happens.
Colden Baxter: That's not the the long view is not even ecologists have not necessarily, you know taken the long view even though their science the science of ecology really at its heart and it's the spirit of it really ought to inspire that Even ecologists haven't really taken the long what I'd describe as the long view. Long view and he did, you know, and then he was really enthusiastic about the idea that that together we were actually getting a longer view.
Colden Baxter: Right. That instead of you know, one professor retiring and then a new professor moving in and just building everything from scratch that we were going to share our lived experiences, that there was going to be this translation of, of background experience and culture. Right. And and shifting and yeah. And that, that and, to me that's, I know of a handful of circumstances like that that have occurred around the world in, in the science of ecology.
Colden Baxter: But I think that's one of its real potential. There is a potential that is somewhat untapped, like how do you actually turn ecology into a multi generational effort, right? And I hope a place like this, if it's really dedicated to this in the long haul, right in the end has the long view. It has the potential to be the kind of place that nurtures that.
Colden Baxter: Right. And I'd like to see more of that. Yeah, like Jim Peek's long term monitoring as well and others, you know, other repeating studies that students did 30, 40 years ago, that kind of thing. There's a lot of potential for that here. But yeah, so I hope I hope to see more of that kind of thing. And I feel privileged to have been introduced to the place by Doc and then and Jim and Holly Akenson, who were just also really inspiring people to interact in might.
Colden Baxter: And in that first years that I was working back here and, they really, sort of fueled my enthusiasm for, for this sort of thing. So I really appreciate that and appreciate the opportunity to keep coming back here every year.
Fins
Lauren Fins: So my name is Lauren Fins, and I was a professor at the University of Idaho and the College of Natural Resources, which probably back then wasn't called the College of Natural Resources. It was probably wildlife, forestry, Wildlife and Recreation, maybe. Anyway, I had heard about Taylor Ranch from probably the time that I first got to Idaho. You know, to the college.
Lauren Fins: And lots of people were going in there and they were saying how gorgeous it was and what a wonderful experience. And here it is. This station in the middle of a wilderness area. Anyway, I was, I was anxious to just sort of experience it. So at some point, my daughter was either ten or 12. We decided that we would hike in and we decided not to go, that the long road along the river.
Lauren Fins: We decided to hike over the mountains and down. And so we hired a plane, landed at Cold Meadows, and then hiked in to Taylor. And it was really a wonderful experience. I mean, it was really remarkable to see the station in the middle of a wilderness area. And I think Janet Pope had started on the new cabin by that time.
Lauren Fins: And if she hadn't already started it, it would come soon after that. And I was I was just astonished that all this research was going on in the middle of this wilderness area, that there was this station with an actual you know, with houses. And it it was so antithetical to my idea of a wilderness area because wilderness areas that I had been in before didn't have structures.
Lauren Fins: So it was it was an interesting blend of serving the scientific purpose and this wilderness station that that we could learn so much from.
Jack Kredell: Was it the wilderness experience that that motivated you and your family to want to hike in? Were you kind of seeking that?
Lauren Fins: Yeah. Yeah. Dave and I had hiked in Desolation Wilderness when we were in California, and I just loved that experience of just being away from people. Of course, in Desolation, you're not really away from people very much, but there are moments. There are moments. Yeah. This whole idea of wilderness is just really intriguing and appealing to me. I mean, you can see where I live.
Lauren Fins: there aren't a lot of houses around here. There aren't a lot. There's not a lot of traffic. I like the quiet, so that I that idea of being in the middle of this amazing, huge number of acres, miles and miles of no traffic except the occasional airplane was was really intriguing. I mean, I wanted to be there.
Lauren Fins: And, and so I think part of the appeal of doing the whitebark pine research that we did later was that we would be able to do it in the middle of this wilderness area. So it doesn't get better than that.
Jack Kredell: Do you remember anything about the hike in anything you saw animals or.
Lauren Fins: We didn't see a lot of critters going in. It was arduous. I remember it was arduous. And we were carrying I was probably carrying 50. Dave was carrying 75, Tracy was probably carrying 35lbs, and then Dave had to offload about 10lbs to Tracy because I couldn't carry anymore than I was already carrying. So I felt I feel really guilty about loading this extra 10lbs on our ten year old, ten or 12 year old.
Lauren Fins: But Dave couldn't do it anymore because he had the shin splints. So do you remember that? That was a that was a tough thing to do, but just hiking and, you know, just the experience of going through the woods and and and again, the quiet of that and the sense that, you know, you're making progress toward this end and and yet you're in the middle of nowhere.
Lauren Fins: Yeah, it was late, but we didn't I don't remember seeing critters we did later.
Jack Kredell: You mentioned rattlesnakes.
Lauren Fins: Yeah. Yeah, they're along the river. There's a huge number of rattlesnakes and and, probably in my memory, this rattle, this one rattlesnake has gotten exaggerated, but it seems to me it was this big around, and and I saw it sort of literally snake in, you know, out of the grass and back in again and just scared the bejesus out of me.
Lauren Fins: And Holly had anybody that came to the camp had to do work you had to sort of earn you keep and so she had us pulling spotted and that we nap we'd so she had a project where she was measuring how much nap weed was there and how it decreased over time. So every year she had whoever was there and the interns that were there would pull nap weed and put it in big plastic bags.
Lauren Fins: I don't know if she told you about this, the big black plastic bags. And then she would keep track of how many per year. So I was there, my daughter was there, and my daughter told me later that I almost stepped on a rattlesnake when I was in there pulling knapweed. And she saw it and Holly saw it.
Lauren Fins: But they didn't tell me because they were afraid that I would scream and jump and startle the snake. So I was just blithely pulling half without noticing anyway. Yeah. And I also remember there was I think he was an undergraduate student who was looking at how far the rattlesnakes travel from their nest. Did they tell you about that?
Lauren Fins: And and at the time that I was there, he had measured a distance of I think it was two miles, which was way farther than they ever thought, that rattlers traveled from their nest. So what what a great project for an undergraduate for anyone, actually, but particularly for an undergraduate.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Holly and Jim are both really big on, a wilderness or an experiential education. They're always referring to all Idaho. And in their conversation about Taylor, about about wanting to teach, like the old ways of, of self sustenance, whether it's hanging with a team of mules or just, teaching like basic hydrological principles and, all that stuff.
Jack Kredell: And, did was that ever discussed with you guys or was it just, it was just like work?
Lauren Fins: well, we could see that. And, and I knew that they were doing that with the students and I didn't have to do any of that. But yeah, I was, I was just astonished at how they could make a life out there. You know, some supplies were brought out. Obviously, some supplies were brought in, but they were just really making it work and they would stay there for months at a time.
Lauren Fins: And, made a life there. It was it was remarkable. And and they were teaching students how to bridle animals and how to hook them up. Yeah. Just how to be more self-sufficient. I'm sure for those students, it was life changing.
Jack Kredell: To Taylor is, as you've kind of noted, it's a place of comings and goings, people flying in and out all the time. Yeah, with the exception of Jim and Holly or whoever is managing it. and I'm wondering what, what stays with you when you're when you leave Taylor and you've, you've gone back to civilization. Is there anything that remains with you?
Lauren Fins: How? Well, you know, using Taylor as a base, I was able to get to the whitebark pines and their higher up. And just being in that environment is an inspiring, so just, this is going to sound weird, but it just feeds my soul and it's very emotional. so to, to be able to have a place that you can fly into, which still astonishes me and use that as a base and, and then be able to hike up in just a few hours and be in those high places with those very old amazing trees that don't they don't grow everywhere, you know, And and they're also in danger because the people thought that
Lauren Fins: they didn't get blister rust because blister us hadn't reached the higher elevations yet. But when we were there we we did see blister rust. So to know that they were in danger also, it's a keystone species. So to know that I was there, that, that I got to be there, experience those that environment, those trees while they were still there is, is pretty amazing.
Jack Kredell: Was that so is blister rust. and introduced it was yeah. It's, it that makes me think of wilderness again and that it's it's a space that we've defined as untrammeled by man. Yeah and here you are probably on the top of Dave Lewis Peak or somewhere. Yeah. Way up there. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a good hike to get to the whitebark.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, It's like, I don't know, 3000, maybe 4000 feet of elevation.
Lauren Fins: That was a that was a tough hike. I only did that once, but my student did that more than once.
Jack Kredell: And here you are. You get to the top after a couple of hours and there's blister rust, and it beat you to the peak and it was introduced by by somebody, even though we've we've excluded them in the abstract from wilderness.
Lauren Fins: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Well, what is that. What does that say about our idea of wilderness. Yeah.
Lauren Fins: Well, I. I probably know too much because the whole idea of wilderness is sort of pseudo European, you know, white person, colonial kind of concept. Because Native Americans were here long before we were. And and so that's one thing. And, and the idea that landscapes remain unchanged for eons of time is ludicrous. Anybody who knows anything about ecology and succession knows that things change over time.
Lauren Fins: So that's one thing. But the fact that blister rust was introduced and did so much damage in such a short period of time is disheartening. You know, with certainly in western White Pine, we've changed those the Idaho forests enormously through blister us and then also through harvesting of course. I don't think that blister rust is going to do as much damage in whitebark pine as it did with western white pine, because I don't think blister rust is happy up at those elevations.
Lauren Fins: But still. Yeah, it's sad. It makes me sad for lack of a better that's not very eloquent, but yeah, it's disheartening. On the other hand, there's still there is still there and nature does have a way of rebounding. and it may not be the same as what it was, but but it comes back, you know, that idea that nature abhors a vacuum.
Lauren Fins: That's really true. So it would be interesting to come back in 100 years to see what it looks like.
Jack Kredell: Then You were there. Were you there before the fire? In the fire was 2000, 2001.
Lauren Fins: 2001
Jack Kredell: Diamond point or the Diamond Creek fire?
Lauren Fins: Yeah, I'm so I remember. I remember Jim and Holly telling about the fire. Let me. Okay, so it was in 2001 and this. So that's 21 years ago. And my daughter's 36, so she would have been 15. So we were there before, before the fire.
Jack Kredell: So you need to go back. Yeah, it's already happened. The thing.
Lauren Fins: That's true. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Jack Kredell: My, my idea of Taylor is completely different from yours for that reason.
Lauren Fins: So can you tell me what you see?
Jack Kredell: When I. When I first climbed the cliff above Cliff Creek, opposite Taylor to. To get a good look at the the pioneer drainage. Yeah. I don't think I saw any standing timber. I saw standing dead, but I don't think I saw any live timber. There is some. Wow. But it's in very, very small pockets. Higher up.
Jack Kredell: But it's, it's completely nuked. caught fire.
Lauren Fins: So did it go into the whitebark pine? Did it get that high?
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I got high. Yeah. I don't know. I didn't get it. I think it's the top of. Of Denver, so I was there. I didn't get above. I don't think I got above 7000. I was just running around trying to get interviews. Yeah, but I feel like you guys should go back.
Lauren Fins: Yeah, and I'm trying to remember when Ben graduate. Did you talk to Ben?
Jack Kredell: I emailed Ben. I didn't get a response, but I'll. I'll find another.
Lauren Fins: One. Yeah. I'm trying to remember when when he graduated because I retired in 2012 and I retired in 2012. I'm trying to remember when Ben graduated and I'm thinking it was 2008, in which case I would have been there. But I don't remember the devastation. I don't remember seeing that. But I should go back anyway. The canon's still there.
Lauren Fins: I think it didn't it didn't harm Taylor Ranch, Right. It didn't get into Taylor Ranch. They protected Taylor Ranch. Right.
Jack Kredell: There was only one minor structure that burned.
Lauren Fins: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. It almost got Jim and Holly.
Lauren Fins: I know. I remember them. I remember Holly was out in the field, and she covered herself with wet blankets. And she was with somebody else. Yeah, it was scary.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it was a close call. Yeah. Yeah. can you maybe just briefly summarize the research you were doing up there?
Lauren Fins: We were trying to just get a baseline measure of how much blister rust was in whitebark pine and as many populations as we could reach. and just look at levels and variability across the, the Frank Church, that would That's it in a nutshell. and we also looked at Mountain Pine Beetle as well, so yeah, that was and we looked at regeneration also to see how much regeneration there was and whether the less stressed had gotten into the region.
Jack Kredell: Do you remember what you, what you guys found?
Lauren Fins: I knew you were going to ask me that and I was going to look at Ben's thesis and I forgot to do that. So, I mean, what I can tell you is that it was there, it was present, it was variable. Some populations had very little, some had more. it wasn't like western, white, white pine where it was, you know, in some western white pine populations.
Lauren Fins: It's just essentially wiped out the entire population. It wasn't at that level. So if you if you want to pause, I can go and look.
Jack Kredell: well, is that because of the the elevation or the the temperature you think and not something to do with the host or.
Lauren Fins: No, whitebark pine is very susceptible. It's susceptible. But I think the blister rust isn't happy or doesn't have the conditions for infection as often. It needs moist sort of foggy conditions to germinate generally in the fall. I think the alternate hosts are there, but it just I think it's moving slower. And again, I haven't been there, I haven't been back there and I don't know how much it's invaded since we were there.
Lauren Fins: And I don't know if anybody's been back to, to re monitor.
Jack Kredell: There is somebody doing a research out there on white parks named John Idle.
Lauren Fins: yeah.
Jack Kredell: But I think it's is his research is kind of sporadic and I don't know if it's ongoing or not.
Lauren Fins: Okay. But I should get in touch with him.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Lauren Fins: And because we've got all the GPS coordinates for the the stands that that Ben looked at and so if John is doing any sort of monitoring, he'd want Ben's work as, as a baseline to see how things have changed.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Yeah. So, when you were there, did you encounter signs of, the indigenous presence?
Lauren Fins: Nothing that I remember. Well, there is some petroglyphs along the river, and we saw those just when we were, when I was there with Dave and Tracy. other than that, I don't remember seeing any. Are there a lot?
Jack Kredell: When I was there, I, I was hiking with a, a hydrologist working on springs. and we did come across some old hunting vines, some stone hunting vine down. And there is just, just down downstream of Taylor, there's, a site that Jim thinks, was a funeral pyre. And I'm. Who knows? But there's, a set of, pictographs below an overhang that's, like, very blackened with soot.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it does. Jim is right, And it doesn't feel like a place where you'd ever want to build a campfire to stay warm. It's too exposed. So he thinks it was. It's a I mean, it's obviously a sacred site, but he thinks that it was it was connected to a burial of some kind.
Jack Kredell: And that's just off the trail. most people don't know about it. Yeah. And then while I was there, the Forest Service archeologist just stumbled upon an 8000 year old spear point on the Bear Creek trail.
Lauren Fins: Wow. Wow.
Jack Kredell: yeah.
Lauren Fins: I just read a book called Origin. Have you read it?
Jack Kredell: Is that by Meltzer or.
Lauren Fins: No, it's by Jennifer Raff. And she, She's reviewing all of the evidence for, how long people have been in the the Americas and then evidence for where they came from. And they know that people have been here at least 14,000 years. And there are some people, some archeologists who think that maybe people have been here 30,000 years.
Lauren Fins: And apparently there's some people who think it goes back to 130,000 years. And the evidence is pretty clear that people came from Siberia and Southeast Asia and that they used boats to come down the West Coast and yeah, the kelp highway. And I didn't know anything about that until I read this book. I just read it and just finished it probably last week.
Lauren Fins: Yeah, I need.
Jack Kredell: To read that.
Lauren Fins: Yeah. It's really it's, it's very dense but very informative. It's good.
Jack Kredell: There are good scientists that do Idaho who still think that people have only been in the Americas for 11,000 years. It's pretty frustrating.
Lauren Fins: Now, this I mean, this evidence, good evidence.
Jack Kredell: Refuse to look at it because I think they've stopped reading the articles. You know, you read a bunch when you're getting your write up.
Lauren Fins: Because then you have to teach and do other research.
Jack Kredell: Really frustrating you.
Lauren Fins: You let your graduate students do that and they tell you what's out there.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Even though there's a site on the Salmon River, it's probably five years old and it's I mean, it's just discovered. But yeah, there they're dating tools and points to 15 to 18 so it's it's obvious now.
Lauren Fins: 15 to 18000 years ago. Yeah. Wow. On the Salmon River. Okay.
Jack Kredell: And then. Yeah, And then the footprints in in New Mexico. White Sands.
Lauren Fins: Right? Yeah. She talks about that. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: So I think it's it's. I mean, it's inconvenient. Incontrovertible.
Lauren Fins: Yeah. Incontrovertible. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: There you go.
Lauren Fins: So. So that answers the question about wilderness. I mean, they were there were people there and they made changes, and they live there and they harvested critters and they hunted. Think I don't know if they planted, but they definitely hunted. So we weren't the first. And to put a fence around it, you know, by an imaginary fence. yes, it, it preserves it in a less developed state.
Lauren Fins: And that's, that's a good thing. But to think that it will never change and that it has never changed is ludicrous.
Jack Kredell: What do you think draws us to that idea or inspires us for some reason? You know what? What is it that that that we find comforting or. Yeah, inspiring. With a concept like that.
Lauren Fins: With the concept of wilderness or the idea that we can sort of go back to, to nature.
Jack Kredell: They might be the same thing.
Lauren Fins: No, I don't think they are. I think I the idea of wilderness encompasses the idea that it encompasses the idea that we're letting nature take its course. Right. And that whatever happens, although although we have in the past put out fires and done other things, but in general, letting nature take its course, whatever happens, and there's something really powerful about that idea and that we can go and visit that and see what that looks like.
Lauren Fins: Again, a very powerful idea, almost spiritual. yeah, I guess I can say that. The idea of touching nature, I mean, you can touch nature in a park that's probably about it. A bad example here. I feel like I'm surrounded by nature. Bears come through from time to time, Moose come through from time to time, deer come through all the time.
Lauren Fins: Birds. So I'm. I'm in touch with the the natural world. But this is not a natural environment. So this is powerful for me as a calming place because there are fewer people than in a city, but in a wilderness area. it's bigger, it's vaster, it's I think you get to experience how small you are in the universe when you're in wilderness.
Lauren Fins: It's humbling and it's beautiful. And I, I'm not a religious person, but my husband keeps trying to convince me that I'm a spiritual person. It's different. but I think there's something very spiritual about that wilderness.
Jack Kredell: Did you have that experience that Taylor and then the Frank Church?
Lauren Fins: I came close to it there. I, I had that experience when I went to the Wallowa, the Wallowa wilderness area, because I was by myself and I think it's easier to get in touch with that when you don't have other people that you're talking to. You don't have a purpose in getting to a place and doing your research.
Lauren Fins: So it's it's a much quieter, more internal experience when you're by yourself. And if I had been in the Frank Church by myself, I think I would have had that became close. I did have one sort of terrifying experience in a frank church. well, Ben was working in, in one area on the east side of the Frank Church, and I was just going to go in and work with him for a few days, and we were driving along in a jeep on this dirt road and, you know, it's one track, right?
Lauren Fins: and there was a snowdrift. I think it was, it was June, might have been July. And the snow drifts across the road. We couldn't get through. It was, it was tall enough that we weren't going to be able to dig out. And so I had to back up about half a mile on this dirt one lane dirt road.
Lauren Fins: And, you know, it's a cliff from this side that's up here on this side and talk about terrified and cottonmouth and I was really, really glad to have done that safely. And Ben was, you know, he was okay, you know, this way, that way. It was very scary. I'm glad to be alive.
Jack Kredell: I don't know where this was. This was out of Yellow Pine.
Lauren Fins: No. What's the town? Is it Challis? yeah. And the east side.
Jack Kredell: Okay. Yeah.
Lauren Fins: And you go in there.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, that's one way to do it.
Lauren Fins: And. And we had driven miles and miles and miles, so we may not. Well, I think the road goes in and out of the wilderness area over there if I remember right.
Lauren Fins: And we were trying to reach a camp spot that we would hike from, so we didn't reach that spot. We went back camp somewhere else and then hiked to,
Jack Kredell: Maybe one or two more questions.
Lauren Fins: Sure. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: What kind of a future would you like to see for Taylor Ranch?
Lauren Fins: I'd like to see it continue as a research station, and. And, make sure that the university supports it. I think it provides a really incredible and unique experience for students and for faculty. yeah, that it that sort of experience doesn't exist anywhere else as far as I know. So I hope, I hope the college and the university continue to support it.
Lauren Fins: And it's an opportunity to to observe quietly what changes do happen. Like you said, you know after the fire to to see what changes happen. I mean, that could be monitored year by year, to see what changes know how long it takes, know what comes in. weather. Well, just what form succession takes there.
Jack Kredell: Do you think we can learn anything from observing a change like that as people about ourselves, maybe.
Lauren Fins: Well, philosophically, sure. You know, you're not the same person you were when you were ten. I'm not the same person I was when I was 50. and, Yeah, I think we can learn about resilience. if nothing else, we can learn about resilience. And that whole life, that whole idea that, if it's, if it's not these plants at this time and these critters that this time it'll be something else, as, as long as they're are living things, they will come and occupy and Yeah.
Lauren Fins: What do we learn, What can we learn about ourselves I guess I guess just that resilience and, and also, you know, things are born and things die and to, to maybe to recognize our own mortality and ponder that and to know that that's not such a bad thing. I mean, I Dave knows I want to be cremated where we both want to be cremated, put our ashes in the ground, and maybe that'll nurture some some trees.
Lauren Fins: I mean, we actually have designated where we want those to be, but I won't tell you, But then they get recycled. I don't want to be in a box or a metal box and just have to have my my ashes, my nutrients just go to waste. So maybe there's something in that. I think there's something about being a biologist that, that helps you to understand that that cycle of life and how, how wonderful that is, that to think that your molecules are going to go on and and nurture something, something new and different, some little part of you is there.
Lauren Fins: I don't think our consciousness will be there, but some part of us will be there. It's not comforting. It is to me and I.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I was just reading a an essay by a friend of a friend who is a biologist, a fish biologist who described a salmon as as a thing which transports metals from supernovae from the ocean up into these, these high drainages right. And it's just like there's just this crazy exchange that takes place over and over and over again.
Lauren Fins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that Katie Cavanaugh? Especially the one you talk to? Katie was doing that that research when she was here in in Idaho. And she measured nutrients that were deposited from the depth of the salmon when they came up river and they would deposit their eggs and then they would die. And there were lots more nutrients in the places where they were than in the places where they weren't.
Lauren Fins: And I don't remember if she went where where the rivers were dammed to look at places where the salmon couldn't get to versus where they could. I think she did. and then I just heard on the radio this morning, I think it was a physicist was well, maybe it was. Yeah, he was in as he's an astrophysicist actually somebody who was in, is it the Rolling Stones or.
Lauren Fins: No, no, it was Queen. One of the musicians in the band. Queen is an astrophysicist. he went back and got his Ph.D.. I think it was either Queen or. Or Rolling Stone. I think it was Queen. And he was saying, you know, Joni Mitchell was right. We are stardust, that all of our molecules are dust that came from the Big Bang you know that from solar.
Lauren Fins: Yeah. Yeah. So how how cool was that to think about? We are stardust and it gets recycled.
Hornocker_1
Jack Kredell: So a lot of people who don't know anything about your work, your life's work or Taylor Ranch are going to see this. At least that's my hope, too, for for a younger generation of scholars, researchers, scientists and the general public to see these videos. And so maybe to begin. Could you just introduce yourself and say how you got involved with what became Taylor Ranch Wilderness Station?
Maurice Hornocker: Well, it goes back to my intern years with Craigheads, I suppose. Well, it's it does. I worked with John mainly for better part of ten years through my undergraduate and graduate work, and, and then moving on into the grizzly work and develop that love of the backcountry and big mammal research. He urged me to take this on and, and counsel that to do independent research, which he urged me to do.
Maurice Hornocker: I had to get the advanced degree and the Ph.D. So and he encouraged me to take on a difficult project because he thought I was probably capable of carrying it out. We looked at some projects in Africa, Alaska. None of them seemed to fit and the funding was questionable. And then just timing and luck plays such a role in most people's lives, and they certainly mine the opportunity here in Idaho.
Maurice Hornocker: And this mountain lion study came up and the director, Dick Woodworth, who was really responsible for bringing me the Idaho director, the Idaho Fish and Game, approached me about doing such a project here in Idaho. I was involved on a contract with John. I was his assistant at the Montana Unit at the University of Montana, so I had about ten months to do there.
Maurice Hornocker: So I did an exploratory study out of Missoula just to develop techniques. And we captured 14 lions and and no one had ever done this before, drugging them in trees and taking them out and marking them individually. Well, nine of those 14 were killed by hunters before the end of winter. So anything in Montana would have been impossible to do to retain a study population.
Maurice Hornocker: So we worked out a a long term contract deal with Dick Woodworth and the Idaho Fish and Game Department. And I hired Wilbur Wiles, who became more like a brother than an assistant or companion. And I gave him a tremendous amount of credit for any success we had. He knew the country. He and he suggested Big Creek was probably the best place to do it.
Maurice Hornocker: Lions were vermin in those days. Anybody could hunt them and did kill them any time of the year. But Big Creek was isolated. There was only you had to fly in there in winter. And not everyone could afford that. Not everyone could do the rigorous hiking in that country for a winter outing. So that was in the early years.
Maurice Hornocker: Our security, as the project went on and it became obvious it was going to be successful. I thought more and more of of long term wilderness research, a woods hole of wilderness research is what I, I really dreamed of and the opportunities there. This is the biggest roadless landmass in the United States, the Frank Church wilderness. It was the Idaho primitive area in those days and the Selway Bitterroot, the Wilderness to the north and the wisdom of a committee back in 1932 to set that aside as a primitive area, as watershed.
Maurice Hornocker: The governor appointed a committee of of a cross section business people, the ecologist, farmers, lawyers, and they decided the best use of that was probably leave it as it is for irrigation and water supplies watershed. What wisdom and because timber resources weren't economically viable, miners had combed the country from the settlement of the West and nothing big had emerged what had already been pretty much taken out.
Maurice Hornocker: So they said, Leave it alone, just as it is roadless. So that was a stroke of near genius in those days. Now, of course, with wilderness, it's secure, but they the idea of a of a wilderness research Leopold put it so well that wilderness has maintained itself for centuries without our help, without our manipulation. It's a great opportunity to study the how a healthy land can maintain itself, replace soil faster than it's taken away on and on, and measure that against our activities outside wilderness.
Maurice Hornocker: What we're doing to change landscapes and how we can prevent disaster by looking to wilderness and what it does to maintain itself over centuries. So I thought a a unique situation. Montana had what they called a wilderness research station, but it's on paper alone. And this is could be, I argued tangible evidence the purchase of this property tangible evidence of the University of Idaho's interest, of true interest in wilderness research and preservation.
Maurice Hornocker: That was the aim.
Jack Kredell: And did you broker that deal with the Taylors?
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. He had sold it twice and taken earnest money, and they didn't come through with the money. It was on the market for $100,000 and I steered a couple of people I thought, who might maintain it well. And from my experience with the Craigheads people who really love the land and would take care of it, and they saw it as too costly.
Maurice Hornocker: And so then I this idea Jess Taylor was not a conservationist. He had battled the wilderness. He hated predators. He shot eagles and coyote and anything else he thought that threatened them. He was not a conservationist. And so I was a little apprehensive and a little reluctant to approach him with such an idea. But he wanted to sell it.
Maurice Hornocker: He wanted the money, and he agreed. And I have a letter, the original letter that I, I wrote him outlining the what I would view as a vision of research center there administered by the university. So he agreed to that. So I went to Moscow and Ernie Hartung was not in at the time, but I met with Ken Dick, the financial vice president.
Maurice Hornocker: He really liked the idea and he carried it to President Hartung. And I guess you could say the rest is history.
Jack Kredell: What was your your vision for Taylor?
Maurice Hornocker: A woods hole. Woods Hole in the West. An Oregon State marine biology lab. Santa Cruz Marine Lab. Independent, but affiliated. I helped set one up a quail research center in Texas. Rolling plains. Quail Research Foundation in West Texas and Independent Foundation, but affiliated with Texas A&M. Functioning beautifully. Tall Timbers, Quail Research Center in Alabama or Tennessee, rather same.
Maurice Hornocker: Same. Tremendously successful. Ducks Unlimited is a little different. It's more of a public relations group and all but does a tremendous amount of good. I could see this for wilderness and wilderness species. And again, it's not just about a given species, a mountain lion or but multiple research. The biggest watershed in the United States, single roadless watershed. Water is soon to become more precious, that is in many other parts of the world, more precious than than gold or oil.
Maurice Hornocker: And here we're sitting on the biggest single watershed in the United States. We should just be pounding the drums on that for water conservation because it's critical in a lot of parts of the world freshwater. And here we have all these pristine streams that could support a salmon steelhead population, the reproduction of that tremendous population, once again, if we could get them here because we have the spawning streams. Pristine -- on and on all mines, there are tons of old mining shafts and all we need to be monitoring.
Maurice Hornocker: Now there's a four or acid waste and and and pollution, possible pollution from those old mines. On and on the opportunities. There are endless fires. Fires are going to become more and more. I mean, we're already seeing it and here's an opportunity to after fire research and and insects. Wilbur was a great observer by all partner and when the the bark beetles came in he has an acreage there at big Creek and he observed that the the old trees died, bark beetles kill the old tree.
Maurice Hornocker: Young trees thrived because they no longer had the light competition. Moisture competition from the old trees. The old trees died and fell over and rotted down. Leopold's rebuilding soil faster than it's carried away the natural system. There was a big anthill at the base of a huge Doug fir by his back door and I said, You ought to get rid of those.
Maurice Hornocker: And no, they take care of all the aphids and the big fir and the aphids would kill it if they had an opportunity. But these ants feed on the incredible. But I could go on and on and on an opportune entity.
Jack Kredell: One thing that I find fascinating about Taylor is how the mountain lion has been central to the interests of that place before you even. Dave Lewis.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Had a frontier ethos wanted to eradicate. Yeah, big cats. But then and you had a conservationist ethos and it's fascinating that the flip you can see the shift in attitudes at Taylor in that it goes from a, a backcountry station for, for killing them to wanting to understand them. But the cat has always been central. Can you talk about just what makes it a special place in terms of mountain lions?
Maurice Hornocker: That's. I hadn't thought of in that regard. I guess it's just the total picture of a huge wilderness area. This is centrally located in that big wilderness roadless wilderness area accessible to humans only by air or 30 miles or more trail. that and I do like to think that that our work brought attention to and not only the lions, but the lions placed in that environment that they could be the spokesperson spokes animal for wilderness.
Maurice Hornocker: And yet they are so adaptable they can occur anywhere like bald eagles or a symbol of, of positive things in the environment. even though they're not nearly as majestic a bird as a golden eagle. But still, the point is there's like cows in India, cranes in Japan. The Siberian tiger in Siberia was, was almost wholly to the native people that they felt if ..., the tiger population, was vigorous, the forest was healthy and they lived off the forest from the plants, the the fuel, the building materials, they depended on it and they revered ...
Maurice Hornocker: And if they member of their culture injured a tiger, bad things would happen, killed or injured or die or bad things would happen not just to that individual, but his culture, his people. And so the cultural is much stronger than political or even economic in many cases. And that's what we've tried to do, is to reach people to how could you possibly think of killing or harming such a beautiful animal, an animal that has useful a purpose in nature?
Jack Kredell: I think often humans want to be the wolf or be the cat in terms of their their their keystone role in regulating prey. But but they often do a bad job compared to.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: These yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: Every major work that I am aware of that we talk about balance of nature that's kind of a warm term but that there's truth in it. And look at the big reserves in Russia that for a couple, three centuries they've kept records their wolves and moose, the one we're working in, in Siberia. SOKOTO You lean on the coast, they've kept records there over the year.
Maurice Hornocker: There's a beautiful balance there. Serengeti in Africa that the prey species, the antelope, the zebra that the will to be fluctuate with weather patterns, rain mainly and but the lion population fluctuates and a leopard down here at a lower level and at a lower cadence but it remains the same. And if a predator over utilizes its prey, it suffers.
Maurice Hornocker: And that just doesn't happen in those those cases where we have long term records and man has an interfered. Yellowstone is a great example and that's in our book. Our cougars have killed elk since they've been there, but they're still there was our population of El wolves are really helped smooth that out and they just like we talked earlier, their population just zoom way up and feral but it's come back down.
Maurice Hornocker: Idaho's doing the same way and the management agencies claim, you know, that they're doing it with their killing and certainly they're having an effect, but that population will drop back down anyway. And it's amazing. Well, I won't go there.
Jack Kredell: Why not?
Maurice Hornocker: We we want to kill more wolves. Our legislature, our economy, our ranching community want to kill and them know, I must say, a big portion of the hunting community because they eat elk. And yet we're killing almost record numbers of elk every year. And it was interesting, three years ago there were two groups from Salmon, Idaho, in Boise to visit with the legislature.
Maurice Hornocker: One group said, We've got to do something about these wolves. They're just killing all our game animals. The other group said, We got to do something about these elk, their best and all our fences down and eaten all our haystacks! Logic. But there is and it's accepted in scientific circles that that these predator prey relationships rarely new species who have evolved together one disseminate the population of the other doesn't happen introduced species is different.
Maurice Hornocker: You put rats on an island with seabirds and the rats will overkill the seabirds. They didn't evolve together. They don't know how to respond to it. Elk in Yellowstone at first didn't know how to respond to wolves they were sitting ducks, but they soon learned changed their behavior. Used to be able to see several hundred cows and calves in the Tamar Valley.
Maurice Hornocker: This time of year, you don't do that anymore. They're smaller groups and they're in the forest. This group of permanent elk here in the Wood River Valley. Now they're all up and down the valley and a lot of people feel that they're here because of the wolves brought them down off the and they're safer here in the valley than they were up there.
Maurice Hornocker: I tend to agree in part with that. We've seen the same thing in Yellowstone and we have evidence for it. I mean, we're not just making observational decisions or conclusions. We have marked animals and both elk and and the cougars. So things things change. Animals adapt.
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Jack Kredell: You've witnessed a lot of environmental change in your lifetime, and I was wondering if you could talk about the effect of the Snake River dams on the salmon population of Big Creek. Did you notice any changes?
Maurice Hornocker: Yes, unfortunately. I first drove in the big creek in July of 64, a long time ago. You could hardly stand the smell in the flats there above the gate Ranger station. Rotting salmon. Creek was littered with dead salmon. Any of those views? You get the creek from the road, choked with salmon. The willows were full of coyotes, scavenger birds, ravens, magpies, bears all along there.
Maurice Hornocker: It was routine. Routine down at Taylors. I hiked the creek that summer just to meet the residents Dewey Moore, John Bines, Rex Lanham, the Taylors, and got down to Taylors and they invited me to spend the night. I just backpacked, spend the night. And they said, Well, we'll go down and get a salmon and we'll have poached salmon for breakfast.
Maurice Hornocker: So we just walked down the creek and bang, nice. 12 £14 salmon. Dorothy I had poached salmon for breakfast. Creek was full of them. I saw that last for quite several years. And I was full time working in there. And by full time, I mean, I was in the country that whole span of years from from 60 the winter of 64 on through 72 and three. The summer of 72.
Maurice Hornocker: John Messick and I sat down there above the Cox's hole and counted some 80 salmon in Cox, a whole big one. This was a second run. There were two runs in Big Creek, the Middle Fork and Big Creek. One run came in in June, mid to late June. The other in in July and early August. And they were the bigger ones.
Maurice Hornocker: They were always big. But then that was the year I think the Lower Monumental went in the last day and Lower Monumental. The last one. Grab it, ran it. Yeah, that was it. Next year, just no one knew where the salmon were. Salmon were coming and that was the pattern. Since then, a few get a few, but nothing like it was those early years.
Maurice Hornocker: It was just as though that they'd closed the door one nail too many and the coffin. But people can't believe it when I tell them about Big Creek in the mid sixties. But that's the way it was.
Jack Kredell: I, I couldn't believe it.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. Rex Lanham would fly fishermen in the Cabin Creek and they'd go down there. And I met forum coming out and lugging all these big salmon. I have photos of them somewhere in my piles. But it was routine. Yeah. It's a shame.
Jack Kredell: I want to talk about Wilbur for a little bit.
Jack Kredell: Science today is done in a very different manner than how you and Wilbur did it in the sixties and seventies and maybe even before that. Could you talk just about the. The logistics and the nonscientific backcountry knowhow that was required to perform the science that you did through through men like Wilbur Wiles?
Maurice Hornocker: Well, radio telemetry had just come in. We were the Craighead brothers were the first to develop it for big mammals. It had been developed back in for mammals of cottontail. Rex Lord did it back in Illinois, but it was from Towers. There was no mobile radio tracking system. I didn't have the funds to get into radio tracking in the early years of the project.
Maurice Hornocker: The money just wasn't there. So we had to employ Mach and release. No one had ever done that. It was a common technique with small mammals. They either clipped ears, notched ears, clipped toes on mice and chipmunks, stuff like that to market animals to determine the you might say, the social structure of a species. How many doctors, how many lawyers, how many plumbers, how many schoolteacher was lived in a different community, what the age structure was, how many kids they had.
Maurice Hornocker: All of that prior to marking animals you didn't know, You couldn't tell an animal from any other. You couldn't make any determinations. So we had to mark the the Cougars and the way to do that is with cougar hounds. Wilbur had them, we just treated them, immobilize them, and I earmarked them with cattle tags and put rope collars on them, polyethylene rope collars, as as a precursor to radios that I hope to get on a later stage.
Maurice Hornocker: So through that process, we had to cover a lot of miles. And to do that, Wilbur's a write off When I met him and I knew he was a guy I wanted as a partner. He said, Most of these stories you hear from old lion Hunters about following a lion for two weeks or a month. And finally again is B.S. said to really keep going in the backcountry, there are two things you have to do well, sleep and eat.
Maurice Hornocker: You have to sleep well. You have to eat well. And to do that, we set up different camps. We had seven camps at one point, from Waterfall Creek to Monumental Creek. So we weren't more than six or eight miles from any camp when night fell any night. And a lion can take you through a couple of drainages. He could take you a long way in a day.
Maurice Hornocker: And if you only had one camp, you might be a long, long way from home. So you got to go back, go to a camp and and rest and eat to go the next day. And that was a great lesson from Wilbur. He taught me more about living in the backcountry than than John and Frank did. Even though they set up the survival school for the US Navy.
Maurice Hornocker: They were young officers in the Navy. The Navy assigned them to train Navy pilots for survival and and crash landings and all of that. And they worked out of call back at Chamberlain Basin. That was their headquarters. And but anyway, that was short term survival. This is long term. All winter. So you had to stock all these camps in the fall.
Maurice Hornocker: You had to set them up and bear proof all that. Our biggest enemy were flying squirrels. They had we used Old Navy, a rubber Navy surplus bags to store dog food and food for us. Big poles on trees and flying squirrels would fly in their glide in there. On top of those to haul through that heavy rubber. And then, of course, snow would accumulate in there and ruin everything.
Maurice Hornocker: But anyway, that was life in in in the wilderness. And I had to stock a lot of dog feed. We did that in October prior to the season. We'd use Wilbur's elk tag and wild tag and sometimes a deer tiger, too, for meat. And we'd kill those after it got cold enough to keep the made through winter and we'd hang that.
Maurice Hornocker: And so we had good fresh meat, you might say frozen fresh meat all winter long. it's a different life than than modern quote. Modern biologists live anymore. A few do. But the old boots on the ground has given way to the computer, to G.P.S., to satellite imagery, to all of that. And and it's. It's a wonderful technique.
Maurice Hornocker: It's wonderful technology. You can get information that's just we couldn't at all because you can monitor an animal, you know, 24 seven And, but how you interpret that information is so important. All you get on that computer screen is what's happening in front of that camera. You're not aware of what went on out here prior to that activity on the screen.
Maurice Hornocker: You're not aware his failures and successes over here? You're not aware that he avoided the big lion over there and made the turn around here. You're not aware how he tracked that elk and made the final stop all of those things that are so important to his livelihood, to that individual on the screen's livelihood, you can't interpret that.
Maurice Hornocker: An example is the Jackson Hole study, which I initiated because we had this beautiful 14 year study out of Yellowstone, a regulated environment for all the animals. National Park Service, no hunting, no all natural, quote, natural. Jackson Hole has tons of things going on. Human activity from thousands of snowmobiles, backpackers, International Airport. You've got a number of different agencies managing the land there.
Maurice Hornocker: You've got cattle ranches, you've got outfitter and hunting and all of that. You also have all of the wildlife component from Yellowstone. It's actually the same ecosystem. How do those careers get along? Their stressed they're stressed by wolves, they're stressed by grizzlies stealing there. But they do that in Yellowstone as well. But they make out quite well.
Maurice Hornocker: So lions, just like bears converging on a salmon stream, spawning salmon extreme and becoming, quote, social, getting along with that food source like we had on the dumps in Yellowstone way back in the sixties. But then as soon as that food source is gone, they go back to their solitary way of life. Well, cougars cooperate in Jackson Hole and feed on similar kills.
Maurice Hornocker: They get along because they're stressed. They they are trying to make a living. And wolves are chasing them off a kill all winter long. They're avoiding all those snowmobilers and all of that activity. And and it's tough for them. So they make do the best they can. But it was interpreted as social behavior. Well, it's a form of social behavior.
Maurice Hornocker: But look at Webster. Social behavior means cooperating in a in a group fashion and a group way like bison, like elk, like blackbirds, like so-and-so. So the interpretation is all important with digital age biology. And and I am happy that that many biologists are aware of that. And they do ground checks, they do that. They are aware that that human pro the example I use is a Leopold who was a young predator hater, and he and his companions shot this old she wolf and her pups, and they got to her before she died.
Maurice Hornocker: And he watched the fire go out of her eyes as she died. Changed his whole conservation ethic on the screen. He wouldn't have seen that. Wouldn't Annie, a young biologist. I encourage him to to acquaint themselves with the landscape, feel it, feel it. Tough to do in an office.
Jack Kredell: Not many people can make their own snowshoes.
Maurice Hornocker: Well.
Jack Kredell: Like you and Wilbur did.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. Well, it wasn't any big deal. We just did it. Yeah, I sure miss him. I think of him every day. Ooh. He was like, again. He was like a brother. And this was a big hole above Taylor Ranch as a 19 pounder, we'd go to the middle for it. every march for our spring tonic. And we had a camp at Waterfall Creek, and we catch those Wilbur called red sides.
Maurice Hornocker: He got cutthroat red sides. All the backcountry people did. And so we added red sides for a few days, called it our spring tonic. That was a beautiful fish.
Jack Kredell: The big fish.
Maurice Hornocker: There were lots of them. Lots of them in early seventies. Again, John Messick and I, who counted the the fish, the salmon in Cox, the whole I was grooming him to take to Africa for a leopard study. And he had worked a couple of summers on the on the track and cougars after we put radios on them, which by the way confirmed all our conclusions from from the mark recapture the home ranges that the they respect one male would have for the other male territory resident male.
Maurice Hornocker: But they didn't respect you know, transients or strangers. But they would the the neighbor. And but and that was true in New Mexico as well. There's other stories there. But anyway, yeah, where was I going with this?
Jack Kredell: You were, you were talking about Wilbur and kind of what what what modern technologies failed to pick up. And in comparison with boots on the ground sometimes.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah, I've still lost.
Jack Kredell: But it sounds like Wilbur was the consummate outdoorsman.
Maurice Hornocker: He was, yeah. He and I grew up in Iowa, about 100 miles apart on little 160 acre family farms. Didn't know that it then really is a he was a 15 years older than me. His cousin came west to trap in Jackson Hole, and when Wilbur was in his late teens, he came west. We both played baseball.
Maurice Hornocker: We did a lot of similar thing. Trap lines, bought our school books with money for muskrats and mink and skunks. I got sent home a lot from the one room country school that I went to several times for having skunks there. Forget it. Anyway, Wilbur came to spend a winter with him and never went back and he heard about job opportunities over Driggs and the potato fields and all.
Maurice Hornocker: And and there there he heard from old Tom Drummond, who was he met out in the potato field out there getting his grub steak. They called it making enough money to buy the supplies for winter flour, sugar, whatever. And and he was a prospector and he talked Wilbur into going into Big Creek with him. And for several summers, they roamed the back country panning for gold.
Maurice Hornocker: And Wilbur almost perished on a homemade raft in the Middle Fork. They were couldn't get to this one bar that old Tom knew was the mother lode. The only way they could get there was build this raft at first raft below Big Creek tore the raft all the pieces. And Wilbur down there, didn't make it to the bank.
Maurice Hornocker: He said he there at one point he thought he had at. Anyway, they roamed that whole back country for a couple of years and Tom had the cabin there at Monumental Creek that he gave to Wilbur, that old one. And then Will rebuilt the new one that burned in the big fire here several years ago. But no, he was.
Maurice Hornocker: And the stories he tells Tramp and Beaver up in Chamberlain, those huge skis, you know, that tall as this ceiling one one you glided on the other you steered with. I'll show you a pair I've got them out here on the that I brought from a Beaver Creek cabin. I found an old cabin on Beaver Creek, but. And he fell through the ice on one of those little beaver ponds up there was.
Maurice Hornocker: And and he knew he had to make it back to Monumental or he wasn't going to make it. So he had to come all the way down Ramey Creek and and up to Monumental and or down to monumental and fall out but normal person could have done that. I mean, he he was something else and so under spoken I've said this a lots of times and we'll continue he thought he knew all about cougars in Big Creek.
Maurice Hornocker: He thought there were 3011 in there. Based on the numbers he would kill for bounty over the years. And when we found that there was only a dozen or so full time residents, the others were were transients that would come in and of course, kittens of the Year and yearlings and all but only two. There were only three resident males and and 6 to 8 resident females.
Maurice Hornocker: And and he pondered that at the end of that second third year and he said, you know, the more a man learns, the more he learns he doesn't know. So true.
Jack Kredell: I read somewhere that that Wilbur saw a grizzly track.
Maurice Hornocker: I suspect he did. Yeah. And down on the salmon. That was over on the salmon, that's. Yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: And I'm I'm not surprised at that. North of the river. It's a different climate. It really is striking. you get north of the river, there's a it's much wetter. There's a lot more vegetation. South of the river is much drier. The Selway. We had a ranch in the Selway way for a number of years. The research ranch that we maintained.
Maurice Hornocker: And I was just amazed at the difference in, in the soils, the difference in and but mainly the vegetation lots wetter and the people there Selway claim that they periodically would see a grizzly track and that doesn't surprise me because they come you know north Idaho, British Columbia and that population in north west Montana, there's a small population there out of Libby and and the Act River.
Maurice Hornocker: And those young males will travel.
Jack Kredell: Did you notice any decline in whitebark pine in your time?
Maurice Hornocker: Very little back. Yeah. Whitebark pine. And a lot of it was in decline. But that's I found more of that when I lived in Missoula and hunted on the Idaho Montana border there out of Hamilton and and Derby up on top. There are ridges there, beautiful ridges of whitebark pine that was dying. That was a long time ago when I lived in Missoula.
Maurice Hornocker: But very little whitebark pine in Big Creek drainage or for that matter, any part of the the river south of the salmon that I'm familiar with. I just haven't encountered it. But it's in trouble wherever it is, and it's too bad.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. I don't know why it's in trouble. I mean, I know a lot of the seed propagator is are not in, in their natural abundance. Yeah. And we're also getting drier. Yeah. It's just maybe it's just multiple factors.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. Yellowstone, when we started working there, they had a policy of fire suppression to aid the comeback of whitebark pine on the plateau. All of that big watches is lodgepole pine. Now plateau because lodgepole pine is a pretty short lived species and and they wanted to suppress fires to give the whitebark pine a chance to come on after the lodgepole cycle ended.
Maurice Hornocker: And they had a really good start, a really good start. Whitebark pine was coming back all across through, though then the administration changed and fire suppression came back and they they just threw away all those years of progress. It's back to lodgepole pine again. But and that shows just what policy change can do in a short period of time for long term results.
Jack Kredell: To go back to Taylor, what would you like to see for Taylor's future?
Maurice Hornocker: I would really like to see it flourish as a, as a recognized, even renowned Wilderness Educational Center, a center for consultation, shining light and in land health and and focusing in the near future on water and the treasure we have in the water. And but also that the we live in a Barnum and Bailey world in a way. Celebrity worship.
Maurice Hornocker: People will take the word of a celebrity, you know. And but my point here is to to to create art with facts and with with progress, with actual findings, the credibility to raise the money. I know the university's in a tough financial place. We have a legislature that's totally anti-education. They want to keep a dumb as rattling and pots and pans.
Maurice Hornocker: I don't want to get started there either, but they're anti-education, no question. And and it's going to be tough on any administrator there to fund with the university traditional funding, any kind of a program there. The money has to come from somewhere else. And that means someone with charisma, someone with vision, some a Cesar Chavez, Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King for wilderness.
Maurice Hornocker: Look what those individuals did. And that's what it's going to take there. Unfortunately, that person hasn't surfaced at the University of Idaho, but that's what it's going to take, the kind of person with vision who can get the money, who has the resources, who has the credibility, who has the the the the base that he can bring that kind of money there.
Maurice Hornocker: And it can be done. It can be done. You can get the kind of people Robert Redford would draw attention to it, just as he has the Environmental Defense Fund and the National Resources Defense Council. and but it takes money. The faculty doesn't want to work there because they can do their thing and get their tenure off the interstate.
Maurice Hornocker: They don't need to fly into the remote backcountry and live less than the way they do. But if you give them money, if you'd go to George Schaller Well, George is retired. He's out of it now. But Dave Major still active. And, you know, say, Dave, we want you to head a wolf program in the Idaho wilderness. And here is is a million bucks to do it.
Maurice Hornocker: Bring the best people you got. Let's do it. Publicize the hell out of it. Which he would. And the media would gladly pick it up here in Idaho. Lewiston Tribune would jump on Spokane. I don't know about Boise Paper there to turn it right, but I better not say that. Edit that out. But you see the point with my students, I say, you know, they who who advance to some administrative post a dean or even a college president or something and they're really good scientist.
Maurice Hornocker: I say, God, I'm sorry you're ending your career so soon. And then I follow up with, Do you remember who was president of Notre Dame when when Galileo made his discovery? Do you remember who was who was president when Faulkner won the Pulitzer Prize? People remember good work. They don't remember administrators or politicians unless they're exceptional. And and to give up a career to become what I call a clerk, you're an administrator.
Maurice Hornocker: You're dealing with leave and and salaries and all that. You gave up your career. I've seen it happens in any time to good solid people. What we need here again backing up is someone at the university who carries this wilderness message and who can create the interest in it that makes people proud. I'm proud that the University of Idaho is doing this and how fortunate they are to have this facility to do it.
Maurice Hornocker: Janet ... would help with that. She really would. But you got to have that person. And so far, Denis Becker's a good guy. He's interested. He wants to see it successful and all, but he's got his limitations in his job and his budget and all of that. And he has his his priorities set by the administration. He can't launch off into that world.
Maurice Hornocker: But I'm afraid that's what it's going to take because we've struggled here for a long time now with Taylor Ranch becoming what it could be. And and and the things we've just discussed are the reasons why the past Dean's past administrators have used it as a plaything, a personal playground, you might say. I won't mention any names, but you know who they are.
Maurice Hornocker: And you know what? But the results were, We made a mistake early on hiring Al Erickson as a director. He got it off to a terrible start because he it turned out he had absolutely no interest in wilderness. He was a big game hunter, and that's all he was interested in. And he stuck his foot in his mouth at outfitters meetings, at Regents meetings and everything else gave it a bad taste in legislators mouths right off the bat.
Maurice Hornocker: A waste of money taking it off the tax roll. So can Dick show it? The taxes were something like $60 a year. I. I better not put those numbers that are not right, but close. But the potential is there. It's no one else has anything like it. No one else is in such a magnificent landscape the size alone.
Maurice Hornocker: But I go back to the water. There's nothing in the continue as the United States to match that watershed doesn't exist. Alaska does, but not the 48 and as more and more water becomes critical, it'll be more important.
Jack Kredell: I think some of the issue is that maybe like aside from the the issue of bureaucracy, legislators and people in power, I think, feel they have a hard time making wilderness accessible and valuable as a concept to everyday people.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: I think that's part of the issue. Why? Why? It's hard to drum up interest in Taylor and Wilderness projects when today we're talking so much about accessibility and equity and all this. Yeah, you.
Maurice Hornocker: Know. Yeah, but hey, our family, Idaho family will go to Disneyland and spend the thousand dollars a day easily. You can go into the wilderness first class with an outfitter for far less than that. That's my argument against this accessibility thing. It is accessible and raft trips. You can buy one of those cheaper and you can go to Disneyland.
Maurice Hornocker: Look how many families go to Disneyland. And and with prices the way they are nowadays, motels, hotels, restaurants, all of that, the cost is astronomical for a lot of family that could go for, frankly, a fraction of that to one of the nice Flying B, they could go to a number of wilderness oriented facilities where they would go get five star treatment and a wilderness experience.
Maurice Hornocker: So I, I don't buy that accessibility thing. I think it's television. And today's young families are so tuned to modern entertainment mode that Disneyland has that appeal. And I use Disneyland as an example. There are a lot of other amusement parks and all that stuff, you know, the beach then I know, but I the the people who will seek out the an outfitter, a tourist hospitality business that can provide that they'll find that has a lot expensive than than going to to well Disneyland.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah but I get your point I understand.
Jack Kredell: I get.
Maurice Hornocker: Like, a lot of young people don't want to go into the backcountry. They don't want to go back there when they can go to the beach or go to Disneyland and get Big Macs and all that stuff. It Yeah, yeah.
Jack Kredell: We all have a stake in it. You know, we're we're all it's public. It's held in the public trust. I don't think a lot of people know that.
Maurice Hornocker: No.
Jack Kredell: We're so attached to privacy and privatization. We like we don't have the language for public for commons for now. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: That leads to another issue with public lands and all is grazing leases. They're bought and sold on the market just as though they were private ground. Lake Ranch is on the market for 25 million. They're advertising it as a 800,000 acres. Well, there's 50,000 acres of deeded land. The rest is all grazing leases, BLM and Forest Service, and yet they're bought and sold as as part of the real estate deal utilization.
Maurice Hornocker: Got to utilize these land. Well, cattle are the biggest, biggest environmental culprit in the western, dry, arid western United States that we have. They trash every area that they they graze and most of these guys will over graze their grazing lease, government grazing leases for a dollar 35 and a other. The government touts the CERP program, which is wonderful, as a carbon sequestration program.
Maurice Hornocker: It and trampled grassland and vegetative land soaks up tons of carbon. It it's a beautiful program. That's true. The Biden administration has has often cited they want to sequester this carbon. They are support programs. And do they have an opportunity right now for a pittance to buy up aging ranchers grazing leases? They and people will say, they won't sell those.
Maurice Hornocker: The average age of a rancher in the western United States now is 67. His kids are in Los Angeles and Chicago and New York. They're not going back to that dusty old ranch. They've heard their folks complain about government, the Forest Service, BLM, the markets drove all of that all their life and they struggle. They're not going back to that.
Maurice Hornocker: They don't want it. Those old folks would sell. They did in the White Clouds. They did in the ... He's and they would anywhere if you offered them enough money you own a home that's worth appraised at 400,000 and you don't want to sell it. But I can buy and I'll say I'll give you 650,000 for it. You'd think about it and they could take the cattle off most or a big percentage of the Western landscape.
Maurice Hornocker: And it would just simply carbon sequester it. It'd be the cheapest sequestered program they can do. No infrastructure or no nothing, just keep the cows off. But that wouldn't go anywhere. My god, it's a way of life. But it would work. And and I know because I know enough ranchers, I know enough that are ready to quit Texas.
Maurice Hornocker: I know quite a number because it's all private land down there, but I know quite a few here. They'd sell it. They'd sell that debt. That's their retirement fund.
Jack Kredell: Well, the Bundys would call that socialism, even though they're grazing their cattle on public land for a pittance.
Maurice Hornocker: Well, the old guy, I don't think, still paid anything. Let's talk about government bungling. well, yeah.
Jack Kredell: Before we end it, are there any memorable encounters or experiences you had at Taylor that come to mind or that returned to you? The animal encounters or just moments of Zen, as you've called them or anything like that that sticks out to you over the years?
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah, there are, there are several, encounters with cats and ledges and caves and trees because we really didn't know, you know, I had little experience. They didn't know what to expect. And cats could have attacked us on a number. Both Wilber and I, on a number of occasions had they chose to, but they wanted to get away.
Maurice Hornocker: So all they wanted to do. But there's one incident with the dogs and with Wilbur that that is fresh in my mind that will never go away. See, we tracked the cat out of Rush Creek and where we're was a little reluctant to turn loose on it because he couldn't judge. How old it was. And Rush Creek is really.
Maurice Hornocker: But we turned loose up there under the tower, and it went down to the mouth of Rush Creek, crossed Big Creek, went three quarters of the way up Horse Mountain, angled around into Cliff Creek and over. And we found one of the dogs after dark over on the ridge into Gold Creek. So we went dropped off into Taylor Ranch for the night and got up early and went back up on the ridge the next morning and found the other two dogs that had had treed a cougar.
Maurice Hornocker: But we're off on a cliff and and had to go off a cliff with a rope to get the dogs off that cliff. But we marked that cougar and but Little Red was gone, his favorite. And we tracked him off into the Gold Creek and up on the dense creek ridge, still no red and dark. So we got back to Taylors, and Wilbur figured he was gone.
Maurice Hornocker: So we spent all the next day tracking that country and didn't find his track. And Weaver said either a cougar scaled him or is run off a cliff. But we got up the next morning and he said, Well, let's go down and make one more look. In the early years, the first year, Wilbert established a camp at the Mouth of Dance Creek and just a sleepover camp because we didn't have facilities at Taylor that first winter, but we did at Cabin Creek.
Maurice Hornocker: But anyway, we, we went down and, and no tracks on the trail, nothing. And we approached that old campsite and here comes red bounding out of the creek bottom, barking his head off at us. And, you know, he didn't recognize. Sorry. But then he got our way and. And here he comes running. I still can't tell it without doing this.
Maurice Hornocker: It was just... so the bond was so strong and, well, Wilbur cried. What damn wind in my eyes. And I'm glad he did that because that helps me break it, you know? But I'll never experience a feeling in my life. Haven't and won't. A feeling I had for an individual and his friend. It was just too much.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah, I've had those moments. Nothing like that with dogs I've had to put to sleep. friends, you see several of them here. They're back here under the cottonwoods and across the creek and graves over there. And you, you know, when you get them that that day is coming. But, you you're never quite ready for, like, a family member.
Maurice Hornocker: But that was the most powerful moment I had. And and in all the years of that work, it just surpassed anything else for the work, the cats or anything else that's just seared into my soul. That's the kind of person he will.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. And he didn't want to go the way he did in bed at the facility. He wanted to die back at the cabin.
Jack Kredell: 101. Right. Pardon? He was 101.
Maurice Hornocker: 103. Yeah. Yeah. And he was, you know, he gardened and everything right up to a hundred and, and love that, that cabin and love Big Creek and. But we, we don't always, always choose everything we want. He wintered in Arizona. He had drive down there two days every year close the place that big creek that last year he was failing.
Maurice Hornocker: So when he was 100 or approaching a hundred and I offered to drive him down and he said, no, how would you get home? And I said, you just take me to Phoenix, and I could fly home. no, no, no, no. I'll make it. I'll it. Well, he always called as soon as he got there.
Maurice Hornocker: Well, I didn't get any call and I said to Leslie, my wife should not like him, not to let us know he's there. He made it there two days later, and I was all packed up to go birding in Montana. And the phone rang and it was the hospital in Ely, Nevada. Wilbur drove -- driven the end of the night and went off in a construction site access road and smashed into the back of a big truck.
Maurice Hornocker: And he was in the hospital in Ely and he should have been killed from the looks of that car. So I went down and got him and brought him up and, he stayed with us. We have a place over in Eagle where we spend the winter near Eagle, and Wilbur spent a month with us until an opening opened up at a VA.
Maurice Hornocker: And we got him in there and. And there he was there until, he the Well, I'm skipping some here. Went into a rest home and and, he was up and around, got early, get a shower himself and come out to the mess hall or, or dining room and all. But he wanted to go back and spend some time at Big Creek.
Maurice Hornocker: And I objected to it because I could see that it wasn't safe for him in that old cabin and he had to have a walker. But he prevailed and his friends all supported it. So he went back and the first night he fell and and cut his ankle severely. Well, I flew in there and took him immediately. And an infection had set in just literally overnight.
Maurice Hornocker: The leg was as red as blood and swollen and all. So I took him into McCall and and they pumped him full of antibiotics and all of that and wrapped him up and everything and said, you know, it's okay, but you can't get around. So we drove back in the Big Creek and I said, Wilbur, I think we should go.
Maurice Hornocker: no, I'll be alright. He couldn't get up the next morning, could couldn't move. So I called the LifeFlight and brought him in. And then we started he got him into they they he said, you have two options here. We can amputate that foot and stop that infection or let it go and it'll it'll spread in your system and you'll die.
Maurice Hornocker: Well, he elected the bladder. He didn't want his foot cut off. The thing healed up. It astounded, it astounded the V.A. doctors. They couldn't believe it. But anyway, it got him into the V.A., into the hospice, and, and that's where he died. He never got out of bed after that. And it was sad, sad to see He he could still be alive if he hadn't gone in the Big Creek, if he had a you know, because he he was so vigorous even at that age.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. he was a good one of those people -- A handshake was his bond. I guess everyone should have at least one friend like that. I've had more than one. John Craighead was that way. He lived to 100. We hunted and fished like crazy. He was involved in a lot of things. And, and took on a lot of projects that that people don't know about that took a lot of his time.
Maurice Hornocker: And he did get haggard looking in the office. And I worked in the in the lab in the there adjacent to his office in Missoula and at about time, often in the day, he'd stick his head in my door and he said, let's get out of here. And I knew what that meant. Up the Blackfoot or out to Rock Creek or down to Lolo Creek fishing.
Maurice Hornocker: And he could look, you know, a hundred years old when we left that office. And and after an hour on the stream, he looked half that age. He just it just totally revitalized it. (laughs) Off the Blackfoot one afternoon, he was catching fish after fish, and I couldn't get a strike, so I angled my way over to him and I said, What are you using?
Maurice Hornocker: And he said, It's not what you use, it's how you hold your anus. I'm told that to a lot of people. They say, I works well.
Jack Kredell: You know. Norman McClain Pardon? Did you know Norman McClain?
Maurice Hornocker: I met him, yeah. he had this cabin, you know, the cabin on the Swan up the Swan. And his son just has a book out here recently. I have it. I, my friend has it now. They Still have the old family cabin on up there. Not Seeley Lake. It's on the Sealy side of the Swan Pass. Yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: And, who wrote the way West or other Montana writer? He was there one day. We. John and I went over there. We were up the Blackfoot. Answer. yeah. We went up to get a big grizzly that this rancher had trapped and killed there near Ovando and John said, Let's go over and see if MacLaine's are here.
Maurice Hornocker: So we did and he was there and well, it's on the tip of my tongue. He was there as well. Big sky, you know, big sky and the way west. and it was really, really interesting. These people were just regular folks. I'll think of it in a second.
Jack Kredell: I'll look it up.
Maurice Hornocker: Guthrie Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. Abbey. Guthrie. Yeah, yeah. And Bud Moore was another Idaho backcountry guy, and he knew McClain and spent time in and Swan and and CB country.
Jack Kredell: I know.
Maurice Hornocker: Bill Moore yeah. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Son, I've been up to the lookout, Fire Lookout? That he likes the man. I've interviewed him before. yeah. But Bud was another real backcountry guy.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah, it was. Yeah. Selway Bailey walks on. Yeah. Wrote, you know, some interesting books and stuff about it.
Jack Kredell: Do you know, Do you know Dick Walker?
Maurice Hornocker: I know Dick. Well, yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Maurice Hornocker: Yeah. I'm working with a friend of his. Is, Do you know Dave Johnson? Yeah, He was a reporter for Lewiston Tribune for 30 years and wrote, everyone has a story, a column. It take a phone book, put his finger on a name, call him and go interview him for a story. Charles Kuralt endorsed that idea when, Moscow paper fired him or didn't fire him.
Maurice Hornocker: But Lewiston paper liked it. But anyway, Dick and and, Dave spent a summer together in the same way, and Dave stays in touch with him a lot. he sold his plane. I flew several times in that plane with Dick. First trip in the Selway was with Dick in that plane.
Jack Kredell: Was it Moose? Correct. Moose Creek or somewhere?
Maurice Hornocker: No, no. We went into, Bonk Wolfenburger place and and, Running Creek, and I met, you know, name Wolfenburger? Yeah. He had that ranch outfit in there. He was legendary in the country, and, and then, Running Creek Ranch, which we had our foundation for several years and a nice country.
Maurice Hornocker: Beautiful country. So Dick was quite a guy. He's got more history on this Elway than anyone, and he'll never publish it. I'm sure it's stale now to him, I think.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Koehler
Gary Koehler: Yeah, well, I'm Gary Koehler and I got involved in actually, I started dreaming about big Creek and that Taylor Ranch probably after 1969 when Maurice wrote the article about the coolest cougar study in the National Geographic. I had a copy of that, and I think I still have that copy and it was enchanting to me to be in the midst of that such a huge wilderness area and to do the work that he did, he and Wilbur were doing on cougars or mountain lions, as they're referred to here and and Idaho.
Gary Koehler: And I remember this picture in the National Geographic of Wilbur lowering this cougar that had been mobilized and and this big Ponderosa pine tree. I mean, and that just kind of set the I still have that image in my mind, that beautiful big Ponderosa in particular and the cat and the fact that Wilbur was up there and luring this cat out of this tree and so I had that in the back of my mind that, you know, this is what I it planted the seed, I think, in me about something to aspire to.
Gary Koehler: And I had worked in the North Cascades since 1965 on trail crew for the Forest Service and when what was called the North Cascades primitive area and and I kind of followed I wanted to see the whole North Cascades. So I worked on different Ranger districts in that backcountry. And I was kind of running out of room. In 1969, a big chunk of the the heart of the North Cascades was Mid North Cascades National Park spent a year there and didn't really like the bureaucracy.
Gary Koehler: And so I think it was about that time too, that Morris's article in The Geographic came out. So I thought, that might be kind of fun to explore. The the Northern Rockies area, particularly the backcountry of Idaho. And so I headed that way again with the vision of Wilbur coming out of that big Ponderosa with that cat and I ended up working for the Forest Service as a wilderness ranger in the Selway Bitterroot.
Gary Koehler: And then flew into Moose Creek and for a detail or training session. And that's on the Selway Bitterroot are in the Selway River and fell in love with that place. I mean, a ranger station out in the middle of an immense wilderness like that is pretty enchanting. So. So I applied and got a job the next year at Moose Creek as a wilderness ranger.
Gary Koehler: And then after stumping around that country, exploring and surveying for outfitter camps, I was in the higher elevations of Fish Creek or Fish Lake on the divide into the loch saw drainage. And I thought, I'd like to spend the winter up here. There was an old cabin back there, so I kind of knew nothing about Pine marten.
Gary Koehler: I thought, this might be kind of fun to do a Pine Martens study up here, having no idea what a pine marten did. And so some colleagues at the Forest Service fire science lab there in Missoula approached Maurice about taking me on as a grad student. And so that was kind of my first official introduction to Maurice.
Gary Koehler: And and he supervise my work and me in the Selway Bitterroot wilderness doing the winter work on on Pine, Marten and, and, and so after that, I was kind of after I got my master's degree, I was kind of footloose and not fancy free. I just kind of wandering lost. And a couple of years later, Maurice called and he says, Do you want to do a Bobcat study?
Gary Koehler: And and Taylor actually said, Yeah, that sounds interesting. And mainly my interest was in just being back there in the wilderness and I spend a couple winters back there again, being under the tutelage of Maurice Hornocker, the I mean, he was the top carnivore ecologist in North America or one of the and I mean, couldn't pass up an offer like that.
Gary Koehler: So so I embarked on a four year study back there out of Taylor Branch looking at Bobcat and also it evolved into looking at the interactions of the other top predators back there and and that's the coyote in the mountain lion or the cougar. And so I spent four, four winters four years back there collecting data. And I didn't come out that frequently.
Gary Koehler: Mona was back there with me at that time, and we lived in one of Jess Taylor's cabins and spent four years working there in the winter time, which was a neat time of the year. That's obviously the the epic wilderness experiences being in an area like that in the winter and got my Ph.D. on Bobcats wrote a couple of papers on that, and as well as the interactions of bobcats and coyotes and cougars.
Gary Koehler: And so it was about 20 years after Maurice did his work in Sixties there. And so I was in there in the eighties, and I and so that's how I got involved with Maurice and that's how I got involved. The Taylor Ranch kind of not by design, but just kind of stumbling into those opportunities. And they've obviously planted a seed for me to continue to work more with the top carnivores, top predators in on the planet.
Gary Koehler: And I've spent some time in Kenya teaching at a university there developing a a program, wildlife program and a graduate program. There, and also spent some time in later years, well after that, working for the Department of Fish and Wildlife and Washington State, doing black bear studies, doing cougar research, and also Canada Lynx up there in the Okanagan.
Gary Koehler: And after I kind of mingled that with a little bit more international work, spent some time working with snow leopards in Mongolia and Nepal and India, Himalayas and so and during that, prior to that, I also did some surveys for tigers and central China, south central China. And so I was intrigued by cats. And Maurice obviously helped found that interest.
Gary Koehler: And so I kind of hung around Maurice and, and his philosophy, I think the probably what you may hear you've already heard from Maurice because that's the way life works. You know, he was my mentor for a good number of years and still is.
Unknown: Also is great. Let me just back.
Gary Koehler: You about back.
Unknown: To say biographer by trade.
Gary Koehler: Thing I stumbled into yeah kind of like me life.
Jack Kredell: You know it's none of our trade.
Gary Koehler: Making do yeah.
Jack Kredell: Or it's not our trade by choice.
Gary Koehler: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: To go back to that that idea of a kernel and this image of of Morris climbing up a Ponderosa to winch your rope down this, this tranquilized cat. What, what is that the essence of this kernel for you do you think is it about like what is it something to do with with predators and just this this idea of wilderness or what Like what do you think is at the center of that kernel?
Gary Koehler: That's a great question. And it's something that I really haven't thought about before. But I think that now that you've got that image of that Ponderosa pine in that cat coming out of that tree in the middle of the what was then the Idaho primitive area kind of encapsulated everything that I and I had spent my life in the Forest Service working in wilderness areas in the North Cascades and and so I was really always stimulated by wild areas and kind of fancied myself as a devotee or this is what I want to do with my life.
Gary Koehler: And I met a lot of interesting folks in those wanderings. And so I think it was the mix of the wilderness, the wildness. I mean, in the basically the pureness of the planet in that area. And also with the cat. The cat is the quintessential predator on this planet. And, you know, we humans are predators, too. And I think that and I like to hunt and I like to fish.
Gary Koehler: And the cougar is the ultimate predator. And so perhaps in some ways it was kind of understanding myself, you know, as a hunter, as just a place on this planet, and where a better place would be to make that discovery in a wild place like the river of no return wilderness, or at that time the ideal primitive area. And so I think it was that mixture that it was kind of a mixture of kernels that kind of enticed me into that area and being attracted by Maurice's legend and Wilbur's legend in that area.
Gary Koehler: And just to be around that, that philosophy and I have long since left the the wild areas, you know, the wilderness areas, but I'm still engaged quite a bit, mainly with carnivore conservation and management and not so much in the wilds anymore, but doing a lot of politicking and lobbying for them in amongst particular our state agency Fish and Wildlife.
Gary Koehler: And so I'm trying to give a voice to the cats and the carnivores, the predators, because I've learned that they need a voice.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. I was going to ask if you if you found what you were looking for or encountered that that sense of self. Well, out there, those four years. and if that thing was was what you anticipated and maybe, maybe it is related to, to this idea of providing voice on behalf of something which is not human and not concerned at all.
Jack Kredell: I don't know. Did you find what you were looking for?
Gary Koehler: I think in part, I think my role now is, is my feeling to give back to the planet, give back to predators, to carnivores. And because it's been an intriguing experience in my life and they too, are kind of mentors in my life and how they can live amongst humans and be undetected and and and travel with a soft paw on this planet.
Gary Koehler: So I think from those treks in the wintertime, you know, in the wilderness areas, I think that I've I've gained something by following their tracks. And now it is my role to get back to them are what I have learned from them and try to be an advocate for them in wild places. But but mainly my focus is is on carnivores and in how we live with them or how we don't live with them.
Gary Koehler: So and I think that I'm trying to do payback. And that's kind of the way I feel about hanging around. Maurice. You know, he's been a friend, he's been a mentor, and now I'm kind of his sidekick, you know, following him around on his exploits and desires and travels and wanderings. And so I'm kind of, in a way, a partner of his just making sure that he gets to the gate on time, you know, doesn't miss the gate and etc..
Gary Koehler: And spending time with him. And in the backcountry.
Jack Kredell: He told me there's nothing left for him to fish except carp.
Gary Koehler: Yeah, that is getting the way it is here. You know, unfortunately, I just came down the the Clearwater and the Salmon River country from McCall. And to think that, you know, these rivers were teeming with fish, with salmon, with steelhead varieties of salmon and in fact, sockeye salmon, you know, making their 500 mile journey all the way to Redfish Lake in the Sawtooth is epic.
Gary Koehler: And we have stopped that. We have plugged the river with dams. We have pumped chemicals in the river. We have drained it. We are dehydrating the landscape and so that trip down the salmon and along the snake was kind of bittersweet for me because to think about the history of that in the salmon runs in that area and think about the way it is now is absolutely tragic.
Gary Koehler: And something needs to be done if we're going to save here we are, Maurice and I, wandering all the way up to the Alaska Peninsula, is out, out all the way to the Aleutian Islands, casting for Chinook salmon, what used to be prolific in the snake and in just a mere, several decades, that has been the fate of the steelhead runs as well.
Gary Koehler: And that is a tragedy. And we need to stop this. We need to do something if we're going to have salmon in our future, in our children's future, we need to do something now.
Jack Kredell: You could probably argue that what you and Maurice were were after in Alaska was really just the Salmon River in Idaho. Yeah. Prior to its development and its colonization.
Gary Koehler: That that is true. I think that what we're was searching for is just a little glimpse of what it has been in the past. And now, I mean, historically, it was tremendous Chinook runs in the salmon, the Snake River, all of the tributaries of the Columbia River. Now we have to go all the way into Alaska, into the Bering Sea, to chase these just to get a glimpse of this fish that were once plentiful here and to cast them, look at them, appreciate their beauty, and release them back into the wild.
Gary Koehler: And just getting a glimpse of what I think this planet has experienced and what maybe the last hopefully not the last glimpses, but could be the last glimpses of some of these species. And I'm hoping that that's not the path of our carnivores, our predators, too, because there is a serious onslaught of the predator control days of the early 1900s in the West against wolves, against cougars, against bears.
Gary Koehler: Their role in being predators and it's it's a tragedy what we're experiencing.
Jack Kredell: What do you think is at the root of that desire to to eliminate these top carnivores from the landscape?
Gary Koehler: I think that a lot of it is human greed. You know, we want the game for ourselves or by game, I'm talking about elk and deer in particular. And I don't mean to demean them by calling them game, but that's been a part of our lexicon. Or take care in the West for eons, if not decades. And I think I think it's it's competition, too.
Gary Koehler: And competition is part of life. You know, people we compete against each other for jobs, people on the landscape, people that are natural resource users and compete against carnivores for what they perceive their share of the of the resource. And so we cannot tolerate our competition. And so I think in trying to safeguard to what we perceived our right from a biblical sense oh, and manifest destiny and all of those, Yeah.
Gary Koehler: I So there's competition and competition isn't a natural thing, but also we are smart enough to see what's before us in the future and we have to come to realize that if we want a planet for our kids, we have to realize that we can't go and unfettered in our competition and to control it and or to control the planet, because all we've got to do is look around us now and the effect that we've had in this era of climate change to see the effects of how we influence this planet.
Jack Kredell: Your you're, your Big Creek Predator study found that that predators are actually quite okay with a fair amount of competition until maybe the winter. Yeah, but for the most part, there's there's there's not a lot of conflict is there.
Gary Koehler: There isn't. There's like you say, even in the winter time, you know, that's how species evolve. That's one of the, the forces that influence evolution is competition and predation. I mean the beautiful elk and the deer that we so much admire are crafted by and part by the forces of predation. Deer wouldn't be as fleet deer wouldn't be as astute in hearing, listening, seeing, smelling if it wasn't predation.
Gary Koehler: And so this is something that they evolved as part of the craftsmanship of the carnivore community, you know, influencing that part of evolution. So everything we really admire about Deer Gnome is thanks to the carnivore, the predator, its craftsmanship and evolution.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, And I would say that if you disrupt that relationship or that that craftsmanship, as you put it, then you really don't have deer.
Gary Koehler: Or you don't.
Jack Kredell: Know something else.
Gary Koehler: Yeah. And I mean, all you got to do is for us hunters is look at the, the common little snail or the slug. We don't pursue slugs and snails as a sport because they haven't gone through that same evolution. They haven't been crafted by these to, to make them give them that challenge to, to give these ungulates the deer and the elk, that skill, that perspective of their landscape and how they are masters of that landscape.
Gary Koehler: And that is crafted a lot by their interaction with predators.
Jack Kredell: Let's see, do you see a lot of second? Are there any particular memories or experiences that that stick out to you from your your time at Taylor in the in the early eighties was that or.
Gary Koehler: Yeah it is I think I spent four winters back home and I think it was the camps living in in the middle of the winter there. And I think also I think I like to track I like to observe tracks and try to decipher what's going on when you're tracking an animal. And it's a it's really a storybook.
Gary Koehler: And I with a lot of a lot of stories, when you're tracking a cougar that's stalking a small herd of elk or something like that, to be decipher, to decipher that it is so and I can still see those tracks to this very day, that impression. And so you don't need to be a wildlife biologist to get that sense of mystery and that understanding of predators.
Gary Koehler: If you're an astute observer, you can make a lot of sense out of of just tracking an animal in the snow. And I think that those impressions of of tracking the first cougars back there just by their tracks are left an intrigue by me or for me, because I still use those skills. I still use that knowledge. And and it's also, you know, if you're aware of their tracks and if you're aware of other signs like a scrape or a simple scat along the trail, you have an understanding about their presence and the fact that they're there.
Gary Koehler: You're not seeing them, but you know that they're there because they have left a sign for you to to grasp and to become aware of their presence and that this is their domain because you're not going to see them without, you know, the aid of technology. So I think it's like you said, it's the winter times and because of that slate that it provides for tracking and also the track itself and trying to understand what's going on or interpreting the behavior behind within those tracks.
Jack Kredell: Sounds like a good book. Almost.
Jack Kredell: It's almost as much imaginative as it is physical.
Gary Koehler: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Can we talk about or can you talk about the. The bobcat that lived at Taylor for a spell?
Gary Koehler: Yeah, Kamir. That was spelled k a m i r but it derived its name from Come Here because we had no name for it and it was going to come here, come here trying to mimic a cat. But, but it was quite a morris sent it in for us to get some understanding firsthand about just how cats move on the landscape.
Gary Koehler: You know, in addition to tracking them in the snow, there's a limit to time times for snow. And so Maurice introduced us to this this kitten that he got, I think it was from a zoo in the Utah. I'm not sure Boise one or the other. And we raised it and and and it was it lived with us in the cabin there at Big Creek or Taylor Ranch and and was part of our family.
Gary Koehler: And, you know, it was well, I hate to say it was our kid, but it was an intriguing pet. And it did give us some insights into cat behavior that you couldn't observe otherwise. And but it was it became a companion and it we would go on hikes with it and and we would follow it around. And mainly, you know, cats are independent and it would not respond to come here even if you called it.
Gary Koehler: But you know Maurice sent it in there to give us insights into cat behavior and an intimate look at the cats and and because we raised it does not mean that it was a domestic cat and that it lacked all the the skills of a hunter because even your domestic your tabby cat is a hunter. And and those of anybody that has has a house cat knows that.
Gary Koehler: So it has those skills and those skills are crafted by evolution, years and years of evolution. So it gives you kind of a sense of a little bit of that, a sense of of their evolution and how they become the craftsman that they are on the landscape.
Jack Kredell: Whatever happened to Kamir?
Gary Koehler: We took after we left Big Creek Taylor Ranch and the study was over, Maurice cautioned us about having a basically a tame wildcat in our, you know, custody. And because of you can't take the wildness out of a cat, just as you can't take the wildness out of your domestic house cat and but, you know, so he encouraged us to take it to a zoo or a wildlife park on the peninsula to swim.
Gary Koehler: And so that's where that's where we left. Come here. It was so sad in particular for my wife, But but he I'm sure he gave a lot of the viewers an the people that came to the wildlife park, some joy, some understanding and give them a perspective. What cats do.
Jack Kredell: To shift gears a little bit here. Yeah. What what would you like to see in Taylor's future? either like recent research foci or just what what, what would you like to see for Taylor?
Gary Koehler: Well, I think they've a lot of structure there that is really make and has been made a teaching institution back there in the midst of this wilderness area to provide facility for young people to get a grasp of a little bit of an understanding and appreciation for what wild, wild places and so it has a really fundamental value, I think, of education, and that's what we really need now more.
Gary Koehler: So in this planet, as we become withdrawn from wild places, just nature. And I mean it's a real good on real good facility for that. And also there's countless research topics, particularly now with the effects of climate change on our planet, and that is as a laboratory where we know that our influence on the planet is universal, that you can't escape it from even the Arctic is showing signs of our hands.
Gary Koehler: But also, I think in the wilderness area, you have basically a laboratory where you can control for a lot of other influences. Like here, there's no traffic back there to have to cancel out or wonder about, you know, how did these species evolve, whether it's Idaho fescue or if it's steelhead or bull trout or the red breasted nuthatch, pygmy nuthatches.
Gary Koehler: You know, there's there's a whole variety of of species there are. And it's interaction into the environment that it evolved in over eons and this laboratory is seeing the effects of our hand as well because this ubiquitous effect of climate change and carbon dioxide poisoning of our planet is we need to get an understanding of the effects and how to turn that thermostat down.
Gary Koehler: So I think that a place like Taylor Ranch has a possibility of providing an insight into the relationship between a species and its environment that you can't find elsewhere on the planet that is occupied by us -- Homo sapiens.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Maurice was particularly interested in in the the idea of using Taylor as a launching pad for for research into water systems and water cycles and things of that nature.
Gary Koehler: You know, I think that that's a very important I mean the water is what sustains life. Water is what gives us life. And it's the watershed that provides that water, collects that water for life. And I think that that is a very important element that you can't learn elsewhere where we are present on the landscape. So that has a very important and everything that, you know from the insect life within a stream, the fish in that stream and in the watershed itself, serving as a winter range or forage in the winter time for ungulates and hence the cats and the wolves.
Gary Koehler: And so so yeah, that is a very elemental part of an understanding that that we need to get a handle on.
Jack Kredell: Do you have any particular big cat memories that that stick out to you from, from your time at Taylor encounters or things you, you witnessed.
Gary Koehler: Yeah, there was one in particular. I mean there were several every, every cat that we marked was unique and there are individuals. It's just not up. You know, we it's a tendency to stereotype everything, whether it's different cultures amongst human cultures or animals, wild animals and the individual behavior of of individuals and how they see the landscape and how they hunt and how they live and how if they're not successful, how they can die from an ill placed stock, a poor attack and but but one in particular, I think what Jimmy and Jim and Hawley were away at that time and they asked us if we could kind of just care, take, you know, we
Gary Koehler: were back there anyway and just watch the Taylor branch and, and we had these camps, winter camps, tent camps scattered up and down, big group from Waterfall Creek along the Middle Fork to Acorn Creek. And I don't remember how many miles that was, but but anyway. But around Christmas time, my wife was with me and we decided to go and check on one of our camps up above cave Creek on on Big Creek.
Gary Koehler: And it was cold. It was something like 16 degrees. We had a cold, cold snap and it was in the teens that I remember. We had all this one camp above Cave Creek and where we were spending a couple of nights just kind of thaw things out. And and I got up in the early morning and it was obviously cold.
Gary Koehler: The stars were just like diamonds up there, twinkling and and there was enough light from those stars that there were just class casting reflections, the crystals on the snow. And I walked out to relieve myself and I saw some fresh cougar tracks in the in right in front of the tent. And I walked back in, stoked up the fire so my wife would have a warm tent to to get out of the sack and and I said, Mona, there's some fresh cougar tracks out here in the snow.
Gary Koehler: And and I, I, you know, stoked the fire and stepped out again and looked down the trail to where I was and there was a cat coming right towards us. It was like or towards our tent. And it was not more than about 30 feet away and it was just coming, sauntering up like it was not a fear of anything, but it had this real curiosity to it.
Gary Koehler: And so I stepped out and I said, Mona, here it is. And it couldn't have been more than about 20 feet away at that time. And it sat down the snow in the middle of the trail and then all of a sudden it got back up and started walking right towards the tent. And it came within right at the corner of the tent.
Gary Koehler: And to be honest with you, I was a little bit, you know, kind of fearful, not, you know, I've been around cats some, but when you encounter that kind of behavior, it's kind of daunting. And and I and so we got into the the tent and I was expecting perhaps this cat might want to into the tent. And so I grabbed the butcher knife and expecting it to come in the tent.
Gary Koehler: And it didn't you know, as soon as the the light, it became more light, I was able to stick my head out and discovered that from the tracks that there was three cats there. There was a mother and two year and a half old kittens and then the cougars, the offspring stay with Mom for about a year and a half until you know the females her size.
Gary Koehler: And if there's a Tom and there was a tom offspring, there is going to be way more than mom is. And she's, you know, hangs under kids and teaches them the trade of being a good predator. And we caught those cats later that winter and put radio collars on them. And sure enough, that's what it was. Was she the mother and a female offspring and a male offspring?
Gary Koehler: I think he weighed about £140 where she weighed about £80. And the female offspring was similar weight, about £70 or something like that. But we put collars on them and got to follow their travels. You know, once they left Mom and the female, the kittens dispersed from the mother that later that spring, the female went across Chamberlain north of the Salmon River.
Gary Koehler: It must have crossed the Salmon River in May when the salmon rivers probably at flood stage and let the cat cross the river some point then. And and the Tom moved all the way and was later killed in outer Drummond, Montana, which is like 160 miles away. And so that that little glimpse of their behavior kind of instilled in me the first understand things of cat behavior, their sociology, their social behavior, and in fact, how important that is to have that understanding to in order to if we're going to manage them, we're going to conserve them to incorporate the cat behavior here in that understanding about how to conserve, how to manage fur caps on
Gary Koehler: the landscape. Because what it means is that, you know, the young males got to get out of the area because the resident Tom, is going to make sure, because if he doesn't, he's going to the probably the young Tom is going to get killed by that by the resident breeding. Tom And, That's life as part of competition. And that also stirs up the genetic part.
Gary Koehler: You know, where the Tom leaves the home area and takes that little gene pack of the genes and distributes elsewhere in other populations, you know, within hundreds of miles away. And and I've observed this in my further cat studies, cougar studies and Bobcat studies of that. This is an elemental part of their behavior and an essential part of their evolution and a view that we must include in the understanding of managing and conserving these species is that, you know, there's a limit basically to the number of cats you can put on the landscape.
Gary Koehler: And that is instilled in part by the Big Tom in the area, getting the young Tom to move out and that to minimize competition and to to essentially in the long term is to distribute the seeds from that population to a much wider area and to exchange genetics with with a regional population. So in that experience there, I've seen very clearly from subsequent cougar research that I've been involved with in Cle Ellum, Washington, where we had a Cougar project we called Project Cat Cougars and Teaching, where we involved the kids from the local school into the project.
Gary Koehler: And we had Mark family groups like that, and the young Tom's half to get out of Dodge, basically. And I mean, they would go hundreds of miles from their place of birth to establish a presence or territory elsewhere. And that territoriality that Maurice identified and described and incurred in the sixties, he was the first to do so, is how important that understanding is and to the management and conservation of cougars and unfortunately, a lot of management doesn't don't take those understandings when they're setting hunting season.
Gary Koehler: They they don't appreciate the behavior. Those keystone bits of understanding about the evolution of these solitary carnivores and into their management consideration. Because there's a lot of thought now that cougars are overrunning the landscape. And there isn't that in the makeup of the evolution of cougars. They're a relatively low density species and it's thanks to those big toms that keep things the mix going.
Gary Koehler: And that concept needs to be understood by managers and conservation.
Jack Kredell: That that movement of the young Tom is not unlike your own dispersal to wilderness areas.
Gary Koehler: You know, that's a very good point. And in fact, I've often heard that that's the one thing that characterizes Homo sapiens is the fact that they move like that. I mean, you think about the Polynesians and the Southeast Asians, you know, of exploring and settling amongst these little tiny islands in the South Pacific. How did they get there?
Gary Koehler: Why did they get there? And Why did Columbus set sail and stumble on to the Americas? Why did the Vikings, you know, set sail and end up in Nova Scotia? It's some young dude that thought that they were curious about what was over the ridge. And it is that maybe that's how seeds get planted, whether it's the dandelion you know in their little drift for, establishing themselves and a new home the cougars that way Homo sapiens showed outward.
Jack Kredell: That night when you encountered the three Cougars. What what do you think the the Cougars were doing that close to you? I mean, while you were studying them, it seems they were also studying you in a way.
Gary Koehler: That's a very good point because the old adage Curiosity killed the cat is so true amongst cats. Trappers use that behavior by hanging a wing or a feather, you know, by a piece of string. Just to get that the attention of a cat. You roll a ball across the your living room floor and the cat's going to charge it.
Gary Koehler: And and so it cat their eyes, their ears are forward oriented and everything about them is attracting or focusing on a movement. And that's how they become such efficient and effective predators. And so but it's also curiosity and how they learn. And I do believe that that's another aspect of cats that we we need to consider when we're responding to you know so-called threats of cougars is that cats are curious.
Gary Koehler: I've probably seen, you know, without the aid of hounds trying to capture cats, I've lost track of how many cats I cougars that I've encountered without, you know, just stumbling onto them. And basically that's what you're doing is stumbling on to them. And it's because of their curiosity about you. And, and I've really become to realize how much they know about us because of that curiosity and because of their cryptic behavior, being able to get a a real close view of us, not because they want to make us dinner, but just because they're curious.
Gary Koehler: And that story about or that old proverb about curiosity killed the cat is probably true. Is true because you know, it's interesting now in the state of Washington, they're killing as many cougars without the aid of hounds as they did when they had hound hunting, and most likely a lot of those cats are killed during their general elk and deer season.
Gary Koehler: And it's because often cattle step out and an elk hunter or a deer hunter with a rifle is going to shoot a curious cat. And it's not because the cat has designs of attacking, it's the cat is curious. I've had a lot of curious cats Look me over.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, unfortunately for a lot of hunters and in the west it's been like drummed into us that it's your duty, you know, to to control wolves or cougars.
Gary Koehler: Yeah. And, and I think it's in part fear because I think that it's part of our gene pool too. Is that when the days when we were just running around with Stone ax and and and hands and ax ads and stuff like that, living in caves, you know, we had a right to be fearful of large carnivores because we were competing with them, you know, on the plains of Africa.
Gary Koehler: And, you know, in the the grasslands of Alaska during the beringia period. And so it's probably somewhat in our genes to fear things with large carnivore and large canines and as dogs do, as all the carnivores do have, and including us and so I think it's probably somewhat in our genes, just like our tailbone is in our genes, just like our fingernails, vestiges of claws.
Gary Koehler: There's a lot of vestiges of of past evolution and amongst us. And I think that fear of the unknown is part of that. And but as long as we have this curiosity ourselves and want to understand more of our environment, I think we can learn and find out that, you know, our fears are often not, you know, justified.
Krumpe_1
Ed Krumpe: Hello, I'm Ed Krumpe. I'm a retired professor from the College of Natural Resources. Came to the University of Idaho in 1979 to teach the wilderness management course. And that first season I was here, because I had been a park superintendent and had been a carpenter before that. I was tasked with going in and looking at this facility they called a Taylor ranch which had 64 acres that had been homesteaded by Jess Taylor, who was a famous outfitter and then later became a site for research for Maurice Hornocker. The first in a world radio collar cougars. And so for 27 years there were Cougars radio collared in there. But they flew me in and of course, I mean, Taylor Ranch is whatever you want to call it, and I was expecting a ranch. And it's not. It's 64 acres on Big Creek, a beautiful creek. It's the primary tributary to the Middle Fork, seven miles up from the from the Middle Fork of the Salmon. And there were you know, there were several log cabins, some historic there a couple of newer structures. Things weren't in very good repair. And there were seasonal interns that would work on science projects in there. But the outfitter they retain an outfitter that actually took care of and it was a caretaker of the place in exchange for hunting privileges.
Ed Krumpe: And then the students would would come and go, but it was in rough, it was in rough condition. And so I mean, when I first saw it, I gotta tell you my first surprise was this isn't a ranch. It's in a steep canyon River Valley. But there's something special about that piece of landscape, I guess I call it a sense of place when you when you step out of the plane or even if you're hiking and cross the bridge. And you look around, there's just it's, it's like there's everything you'd need to survive there. You have a view to the, to the north of the grass covered benches. There's three, three levels of benches, where the elk and bighorn sheep and deer come in the winter, when there's snow everywhere else, they can still browse there. We've counted up to 64 at a time of elk, bighorn and deer on the slopes. The stream is a primary tributary there's salmon that run up it. There's lots of cutthroat and bull trout. And then there are two small streams of very small stream Pioneer Creek comes right through the complex where some of the cabins are. And at the west end of the property is Rush Creek. And that crosses our property. And that's a that's a fair sized stream. And it's there's a lot of anatomist fish go up yet. And so you have this combination of open spaces forced to the south, because that's north facing. And then two streams plus the major Creek and it's wide open. You get the sun in the summer. It's just it's just a special place and you look at it. And you before long you start hiking around and pretty soon you find signs that someone else has been here like you go downstream less than a mile and there's these depressions in the ground, which people used to speculate was that where trees fell over and that was a root ball? Or was that minor scratching hole or something? Well, it was pit houses. We call them Sheep Eaters here it is, but they were there prior to that.
Ed Krumpe: Yeah, ancient ancient houses that finally was excavated. So one of the archaeologists from the University of Idaho, Dr. Franklin Hardy came in, had a grant from the National Geographic Society and started to dig those and those were dug into the ground. And then there would be dark hole colored circular holes along each side where they made like Quonset huts and covered that with bark and brush and stuff. And there'd be a firepit in one end dollies. And these these are the excavation for the archaeologists was quite deep that they in sunken in like that they could survive that super hot summer but they could also survive in winter because I had some of the temperature from the ground to help protect them. And then there's lots there's bones and things the excavated in the in the fire pits. But you look around I mean, and the closer to the Taylor Ranch there's a there's some nice flat spots by the stream to take camp on. And you just kind of look around and there's everything you need. There's there's some shade, there's some open there There's the water, there's places to graze. If you had stock or horses, it's it's just, it's just a special place.
Ed Krumpe: And people just I've noticed for years because I've been going in since 1979, that people come in to walk around and they're just, they're quiet. They just look around and they say, Holy cow, this is a huge valley. I mean, that's, that's the, the benches across the streamer. Rise almost 2000 feet. So there's, there's just something special. Old David Lewis that homesteaded picked a great spot. And then after that, Jess Taylor and a great spot and Maurice Honocker or saw the value of it. And just, we're just blessed the University at the time was willing to put up about $100,000 Take to eventually buy it, which was a steal. So yeah, that's, that's my first impressions. But I still feel that it's it's a, it's a it's a special place, you have a sense of place. And many others have mentioned the same thing.
Jack Kredell: And it sounds like the mountain leaders also knew it was a great spot.
Ed Krumpe: Well, the archaeologist showed us a little better than perhaps a tailor, because it's just downstream a little bit that it has its flat had the stream. There was forage, places to fish. And we actually found some of these at first, they were stones that had a little bit of an indentation. Well, those were net anchors for getting salmon, and the primary bones in the in the fire pits worse or salmon. And, and actually bighorn sheep, not hardly any elk. But if you look at it, what an advantage of that spot was that there was a narrow approach on either end of this flat area. And just one person on each end could have protected that stood guard. So easy to protect and defend. And so that's something we don't think about for for choosing a campsite.
Ed Krumpe: But everything else that we like in a campsite, availability of firewood, flat spot, access to water, some shade, some sun, some forage, everything else, I'm sure it was the same close to 3000 years ago when that was occupied. So it's yeah, it's pretty amazing. I should mention, yeah, well, there's actually a third stream because on on the property, we had water rights for three streams and across Big Creek from where the the facilities are. There's a Cliff Creek, which is a steep creek comes down out of out of the lambing cliffs. And so there's an area that's almost like a Cirque that's very steep and rocky and inaccessible. And bighorn sheep will only lamb on those cliffs that are just totally inaccessible. So Cliff Creek comes tumbling down there too. So we actually had three streams. So that's a pretty special spot. You tell a realtor, I want a place in the mountains that has flat and open and major stream and three minor streams and whatever that's yeah, it has a lot of neat attributes.
Jack Kredell: It's amazing. I have a friend who's a Ph.D. in Water Resources, and I think she's studying Pioneer Creek for, another one of those creek around there could even be Cliff. But she's, she's looking at springs that does fantastic. And you actually asked her, three of my classes.
Jack Kredell: I was going to ask you to describe the geography around Taylor for somebody who's never been. But you basically did that. and then you also kind of described the, the kind of deeper historical scenario with this. Yeah, that was really fantastic.
Ed Krumpe: You know, I'd like to mention though, the more modern history. You know, different people came through and stayed at that after Dave Lewis. Dave Lewis, what's amazing about the guy that first settled there was he was a guide for Colonel Custer in the army. And in the Sheep Eater War, which wasn't a war. The army came through and tried to chase them out. He saw that country for the first time. I was he was a guide, and I think he packed ammunition to But anyway, he came back once he was out of out of the military and settled there. But then there's been some others, you know, that occupied that place. And now we have a landing strip. It's, I can't remember, I think it's 2600 feet long, has a bit of a curve to it. So it's not an easy landing strip, it's one of the more difficult ones in the wilderness. But that was carved out with just Taylor and mules, and they call it a slip scoop, which is kind of a metal pan you drag behind, I mean, unbelievable, work all by hand to get straightened out and make flap a landing strip. And so you know, they started landing planes back in. I think it was in the 40s.
Ed Krumpe: So, there's been a lot, a lot of time invested into it. And then the other thing, you can still see some signs of this is, so we have some nice big open meadows and pasture. And so for years, when we had stock in their horses and mules, we would put up 14 ton of hay a year. But if you'd look out after it was mowed, or say, early in the spring, before the grasses started growing, you'd see a series of spiderweb like ditches. And what that was, it's those old timers would divert water from Pioneer Creek. And they had little trickle ditches that they would stop and then whatever, go down that one, and then stop that one or go down another so they could cover quite a few acres, and water as they needed to spread out the water. And so those still remain. Now we have, we have some hoses and some pivot sprinklers, which can can help things green up. But but then for many, many years, we did everything, we had no electricity in there. And we did everything with with stock. And the way we would do hay was you'd have to bring in, we'd call in all the researchers and students that had worked there are in some project on the area. And usually near the Fourth of July, they'd come in and we'd have 12 to 16 people. And in the morning, hitch up the team and cut with a McCormick sickle bar mower.
Ed Krumpe: It was a 1948 sickle bar mower and I was able to get parts for that clear up into the mid 1980s. And when we couldn't get parts anymore, we found one in Oregon at a at an old horse farm and we took the wheels off because they're heavy. And we flew it in and we cannibalize it for other pieces. But we it cut in the morning. You'd go over it with a dump rake which is behind the mules it was a rake the head times it would go like this. And so you'd make wind rows of hay. And then in the evening, you go flip it into into piles about this high. And the next day, you'd hitch up a big wagon to the to the mules and you'd go out and you have a student with a pitchfork on either side of each mile you get down and meet each go like this and just throw it up on the wagon, you'd have three people in a wagon, stomping it in. And, and you had a number of students and the horses would just weave through these ... so that everyone could throw it up. And we'd get I can't remember, maybe up to two tons.
Ed Krumpe: Just on a wagon, no bales, we're just stacking up like a hay bale. And then eventually we built a pole barn to keep it out of the weather, we were losing too much putting a piece of canvas over and horses can't eat, eat normally Hey. So eventually we build a pole barn. It's all wood, and even with wood shakes and stuff. And we could put, we could put 14 to 16 ton in that. We did that for years, feed the stock. And then the stock were used to support the researchers. So we'd have spike camps, that people tracking mountain line, you do that in the winter. And so they go out with permission from the forest service. And about six or seven miles apart. They'd set up a big old canvas tent, cut some firewood. And then in the winter, they take somebody with mountain lion hunting dogs and research and they go out and track cougar all night come across a track dogs would treat them and then they dart them and do the radio collar and things. So there's a yeah, there's quite a history of people using it and using it with primitive skills. And we just always cut over firewood with a cross cuts on students learn that he might run a chainsaw but you pull a crosscut and they'd say you can't I can't do that. And by golly they put up three or four cords just With a crosscut so it's been quite a place
Krumpe_2
Ed Krumpe: So Taylor Ranch is a private in holding in almost the middle of the Frank Church River of No Return wilderness. And so it was you know, it was a homesteaded piece. And so when that area became Wilderness with the Central Idaho Wilderness Act in 1980, there was quite a few of these ranches or outfitting places that were privately owned.
Ed Krumpe: And so they remained so. So it's a privately owned 64 acres within the wilderness. But to put that in perspective, the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness is 2.43 million acres. Now, what's that mean? Well, that's 30 over 3600 square miles of land without a road. So the only access is by the middle fork of the salmon or the Main Salmon or hiking in.
Ed Krumpe: But the trail access used to drive to McCall and then 87 miles of gravel to get to the big creek ranger station and then about 30 mile hike down to Taylor Ranch. And when it's one, it's the most remote, continually inhabited place in the lower 48 United States. Now, Yellowstone will claim that their Beckley Ranger station is the most remote.
Ed Krumpe: But they don't they don't have people there year round. And what makes us even more remote is you have trail access and a 30 mile hike in, but only for three months or so of the year, because then the snows come and a high mountain passes get closed. And so those roads are closed. And so about seven or eight months of the year, you're about 100 miles from the nearest drivable road.
Ed Krumpe: So that's remote. And that's part of what makes this place so special for an educational opportunity is that wilderness is so large. 3600 square miles. But then right above it, to the north of it is the Gospel Hump. And almost attached to it is the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness, which is 1.2 million acres. And then surrounding that are roadless acres that the Forest Service by law cannot log or change or build roads in.
Ed Krumpe: And without doing a complete this takes an act of Congress. And so you have roadless land that makes like 6 million acres of practically pristine land. It's so large this this this research station in the center of the wilderness. And that area is so large that there are big game herds that go through a migratory pattern and never step foot outside of the wilderness.
Ed Krumpe: So that that just gives a unique research and educational opportunity that doesn't exist anywhere and anywhere in the world, actually. It's just amazing. So the university operates it. They have year round a manager and caretaker that takes care of the place. They have classes that come in. Student interns come in for different different periods. And then in the fall semester in the wild, which usually about a dozen students sign up and they're in there taking about 14 to 17 hours of college credit.
Ed Krumpe: And the faculty come and go, but they're in the wilderness living in log cabins. Well, actually in canvas tents, but for the for the whole semester. So that's that's a pretty unique opportunity and experience. And then, of course, there's other just full time science projects and scientists that are in there. Idaho Fish and Game from our property has a fish trap that about nine months of a year or more they, they trap out migrating steelhead and salmon smolt they anesthetize them.
Ed Krumpe: They put a pit tag in their nose and then they take half of them upstream and other half they let go so that they have a capture recapture estimate. And they do this to 7 to 9000 fish every year. And those go all the way to the ocean. And every dam they go through there, the tag triggers, there's a number.
Ed Krumpe: And those that come back, you can track that. So it's it's a pretty amazing place, an opportunity for for doing research, for doing research in in natural areas that are not affected by logging factories, smog, you know, power lines, mining that that's that's just miles from you. So it's a it's a wonderful comparison. I mean, we need to do research on our national forests and national parks and stuff and rangelands outside.
Ed Krumpe: But here we have a comparison where these are how natural ecosystems are functioning and processing and coming and going in an area like that. So that's that gives you a real value, the real value to it, the unique educational value.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. And you mentioned how how this educational value extends beyond just scientific research. I'm wondering if you can talk more about this, what it's in the sense of what what can Taylor teach us that might apply outside of Taylor?
Ed Krumpe: Well, so for one thing, I mean, we get to see how these these wildlife populations, how they interact, how the streams interact with -- We've had major, major forest fires come through that area and we've seen Big Creek run black with charcoal. And you would think it would kill everything but the fish. We now know they just go down and they find out where their springs coming in.
Ed Krumpe: And after about four or five days or a week or so, the water starts to clear and they're right there. We get to see for, I believe, about 27 years, they had different scientists, had cougar radio collared. And the amazing thing is these big toms established territories and Honaker documented this and then subsequent researchers documented. And the territories are inviolate.
Ed Krumpe: If the if one of those TOMS crosses into another one, there's a fight. When they brought when they released wolves in the Frank, they released the same number of wolves as they did in Yellowstone on the same day. What we were able to document and some of those wolves were radio Howard, was that the wolves would move through and those big toms would just get up and leave their territory to get out of the way and go into another territory.
Ed Krumpe: And there was no fight. And then the wolves would move through and they'd go back and that Tom would be wary and get up and go into another territory. And so that hasn't been documented anywhere. You can even document that in Yellowstone. So that was something unique to see how they and but the same with the different L they'd hear them coming.
Ed Krumpe: Wolves are pretty vocal. They run the ridges and yap back and forth and critters move out of the way and come in behind them and stuff. So there's things like that that can be can only be seen in such a pristine setting. And then another one, Dr. Brian Kennedy, you know, he was in the fisheries department researching the the salmon and steelhead, and he was able to determine that the the water.
Ed Krumpe: And there's like seven different drainages in Big Creek where there's different isotopes and stuff, and the fish actually pick that up as they're growing them. And the odorless is a bone in the ear and it grows in layers just like an onion. And so grad students would come in and they'd hike Big Creek and they would document every rotting carcass after spawning of these.
Ed Krumpe: And they dig out that old if take it back for analysis. And they could find what section of Big Creek that fish was born in and raised in. And he was able to document that there's a certain percentage of strays. So the Walt Disney image of salmon is that they come back to the same stream and the same tiny little rivulet and, you know, nested at exactly the same place.
Ed Krumpe: But if that really happened like that, well, pretty soon the species would disappear because they'd become so inbred. So there is straying. And this was like, you can't document that in anywhere but a place like it, like a wilderness research station and the access to that. So, yeah, there's things like that. We're still discovering that you couldn't you couldn't document that anywhere else.
Ed Krumpe: And this fish, by the way, when they swim under the there's a four service trail bridge on the property. And when those fish come under that, there's a wire buried under there as an antenna to sense the pit tagged fish that return. But I mean, they have swum upstream through all those dams and made it about 750 miles from the ocean when they go past us and then they keep going, they go another 30, 40 miles up into smaller streams and stuff, too.
Ed Krumpe: So that's part of what makes it a pretty special place to. I want to mention something, though, that's hard to document, but I'll tell you, everybody that has taught in there can verify this. The students have an amazing experience and I tell them, here's the secret about about Taylor Wilderness Research Station and working in the wilderness like that and never come all the way out.
Ed Krumpe: You never come all the way out. We just not too long ago, I heard from somebody that had been in there 30 years ago, and they said it affected their career choice. It affected the grad school they went to, and they still can recall that they kind of learned that they can do things in a wild place like that.
Ed Krumpe: They learned to appreciate wild nature like like nowhere else. It's not I don't like to use this term because it's almost cliche, but it is a transformative experience, I mean, for the researchers, of course, but especially for the students that come in and spend a semester. Idaho Public TV wanted to come in and, you know, film some of this and document it.
Ed Krumpe: And they said, well, what do you call this? Besides, back then we called it Taylor Ranch, and now it's Taylor Wilderness Research Station. But I said, Well, it's America's wildest classroom and it really is. It's America's wildest classroom. And where I mean, that classroom has natural lighting, it has abundance of free flowing water. It has trails -- not too many projectors or PowerPoint presentations, but it's America's wildest classroom.
Ed Krumpe: And they like that. They they did an outdoor Idaho or something with it. And then the university actually trademarked that term America's wild classroom. But that's that pretty much says it all. It's America's wildest classroom. I don't know if I should say this, but, you know, we've struggled to live up to its potential, though everything. So the university has funded it, but only funded the maintenance of it.
Ed Krumpe: It's their property. They don't want it to degrade. So we've had a very spartan maintenance budget. So everything else, it's it's faculty writing grants, competing for for funds, trying to figure out what can be done or how research data collected there could compare with, say, Glacier or Yellowstone or something. And then trying to put together a team or hire the right grad students and stuff.
Ed Krumpe: So it's been a struggle to have both the students and the research going on and it's just such a valuable place. I mean, I, I guess if I could go back in history, maybe what I would do at the beginning is start trying to raise some kind of endowment. I don't know how to do that. But they, you know, they need they need a source that's independent and dependable.
Ed Krumpe: But so it's it's always been a struggle to try to live up to its potential.
Jack Kredell: I was going to ask you what what kind of a future do you want to see for Taylor?
Ed Krumpe: I believe in the internship program. They get amazing experience. Typically, those interns come in and they work on an ongoing research project. Some years we actually I mean, we do have some funding for that. And so some years they actually write proposals like, I want to look at the sage grouse or something. And so they'll do their own, you know, senior senior research.
Ed Krumpe: Others work on ongoing, ongoing projects. So that's that's important that we keep that going because that that's impactful and it's a great training and it looks good on their resumes. I mean, around here in Idaho, the Forest Service and the BLM place a student applies for a job and they see somebody working in a Taylor. They go, okay, they know how to handle them so they can be independent.
Ed Krumpe: I really hope to see that semester long program continue in some form. It's kind of difficult to do it for a whole semester, but full class experiences either in hydrology or water or vegetation or fire ecology or whatever, it it's it should continue to be used for that. The thing I'd like to add in the future is I think that something like I used to call Elder Hostel where you could have one or two sessions where just regular people that were interested could sign up and they'd go in and they'd camp in the cabin tents, and then they'd meet these researchers and students and learn about the history.
Ed Krumpe: We did that just a couple of times, and I've had people stop me on the street at Farmers Market, and they said, you know, 30 years ago we went in with Jim Peek and some others. What are you going to do that again? And I think that would be an incredible thing to do. For many years, we will have a high school group come in, so we've had a high school science classroom, environmental science class from Nampa come in.
Ed Krumpe: We've had them from McCall several times. And I think there's room for that, too. These one off the facility is limited. How many people we can have. We've got several cabins. We have some tent platforms, we've got plenty of access to water. But, so we do stuff as always a problem. You have to fly food in and fly trash out.
Ed Krumpe: We don't burn trash. So it's it's difficult, but it has a lot of potential. I'd like to see it keep going that way.
Krumpe_3
Jack Kredell: What stays with you when you leave? Taylor?
Ed Krumpe: What stays with you when you leave Taylor? I think what stays with you is you have a new appreciation of the grandeur and size of this wild landscape. I mean, people see the word wilderness on a map and they maybe have done some backpacks and, you know, a ten or 15 mile backpack. And that's still big country. But this is big, wild country.
Ed Krumpe: There's a major trail down Big Creek. And boy, that's about it. And they will probably have seen wildlife and signs of wildlife or some carcasses from either a wolf or cougar kill. So I really think that when people come out, they they have a new appreciation for that. The grander and the remoteness of these uninhabited places. And we have a legal designation for that is called wilderness place man as a visitor doesn't remain and places are untrammeled, which means uncontrolled by man.
Ed Krumpe: I mean, the biggest change in my career of going into there for 40 some years has been the fires and fires a natural part of the wilderness landscape. But had been suppressed for many years. And so when we did have the fires of 2000, they were huge. I mean, they were 100,000 acre conflagrations. And so places that I remember hiking in dense dug for forests are now barren.
Ed Krumpe: I mean, there's still black stems standing from 2000 fanning that long. But the neat thing is, it's coming back. It's coming back slow as you fly over. You see a patchwork quilt of different shades of green. And that's called the natural vegetation mosaic. And that's where fires have since 2000, fires have spotted in small lightning fires. And they burn for a while and then they hit new growth, which is has more moisture and red and it's lower.
Ed Krumpe: And it drops. And so now we're starting to get that pattern back. And that's what supports wildlife, too. But it's a huge change. A huge a huge change has been the the effect, I think more than 50% of that wilderness has burned since 2000. That's a lot a lot of far. But it's kind of recycling things back there to get into better condition.
Jack Kredell: That was a lot of fuel that ... to it
Ed Krumpe: It was unbelievable when the when the fire came through Taylor, Jim and Holly Akenson the managers rode out and headed downstream. They got to the Middle Fork and there were some people rafting that had stopped on the Middle Fork. And so they fed them and put them up. And then they went on upstream about I can't remember 11 miles or so to the Flying B and the fire spotted ahead head and came over there like two weeks later.
Ed Krumpe: And there were a commercial plane and a private plane flying over that country at the time that that fire team came in. And our manager was there helping to protect that place. And it had an air to ground radio and the lookout, the Forest Service lookout on the south side of that Middle Fork said, holy cow, there's a fire of biblical proportions coming in.
Ed Krumpe: I'm out of here. So our people heard that. And then it did come in and it created a firestorm where it's so hot and so much fire that branches and everything are being sucked up and it reignites the carbon in the flame and it goes even higher. So the commercial airline pilot was talking to a private pilot and they were at 32,000 feet and saying the smoke column is going above us.
Ed Krumpe: And then they said no one could survive that conflagration. And our manager was helping defend his ranch and she had an underground radio. Just wait a minute! Wait a minute! There are people down here. We're fighting the fire. We're still here, which was important. They got word out and then, yeah, finally we're able to send people in. But that that those fires were, you know, every bit as big and hot as the ones you see now in California.
Ed Krumpe: Just 30,000 foot smoke columns. That's a big fire. But now we get to study that and get to study how it comes back. And yeah, there's a lot a lot to look at. It's caused landslides and all kinds of things, but it's coming back.
Jack Kredell: You mentioned how the environment has changed so much and you seem to almost expressed how you you felt a sense of loss perhaps, and nostalgia for this stuff for for for the burn. But you also you're also fine with it And that it's it's a it's a part of the natural fire cycle.
Ed Krumpe: Well, it is a part of the natural fire cycle. And to see it up close. But it was shocking. I mean so when we would hike from from Taylor Wilderness Research Station up to Big Creek I mean up to our Cabin Creek, which is a Forest Service landing field that was little over seven miles. We would hike.
Ed Krumpe: And I would say that 70% of that was in the shade of trees. And in fact, your legs would be wet because of the grass and the dew, because you usually start hiking in the morning. Now, 90% of that right out in the sun and there's a big old burnt snags and things like that. I mean, that's that's pretty major.
Ed Krumpe: And Pioneer comes down through Taylor Ranch and that's about a 90,000 acre watershed. It's a basin and I can't remember how high, but close to 9 to 10000 feet high behind it. And more than 90% of that whole watershed that was completely covered with forest burnt. And so our big fear was that with big rainstorms and stuff, there's trees are gone.
Ed Krumpe: That's just going to come sliding down. I mean, there could be huge mass wasting events where you'd have a wall of water and debris and stuff coming down. So we contacted the USGS and they've had people that have studied this process and they flew in some scientists and experts that looked at the area and surveyed it. And for quite a few years after the fire, every cabin and tent had an aerosol can with a boat horn on it.
Ed Krumpe: And the instructions to every group that came in was if there's a really bad thunder burst up in the high country, this could come washing down. And if you ever hear that, you just you don't try to go to the cookhouse. You don't try to you just go any way to get uphill out of out of that little valley and you blast that horn.
Ed Krumpe: And so this this was a serious concern. In fact, you know, we were really wondering, should we chance even bringing students in? But we didn't have big storms for a couple of years. We had some big storms and it would flow dirty, but it wasn't we weren't getting landslides. So I can't remember how many years, but maybe four or five years later.
Ed Krumpe: The USGS came back in and they went up and were looking at it and they said, we've never seen anything like this. They had seen huge mass wasting events after forest fires over on the Oregon coast and Northern California. But here it wasn't occurring and the reason was there was so little soil, So so the trees weren't on thick topsoil or any kind.
Ed Krumpe: The trees were growing in Boulder fields and rocks. And so it's it's true that after about 7 to 9 years, those trees would start to fall and the roots would start to decay. But they weren't. But it wasn't. They weren't holding soil. And so we kept monitoring that. Pretty soon I don't think you could find a boat horn in there anymore, but more for about 5 to 7 years we had we were concerned and worried about it, but it also was they just found that fascinating that you could have that large of a drainage with so little soil that had supported this fairly old growth, primarily Doug Fir Forest.
Jack Kredell: So yeah, things like that. You just, you just don't know. You don't expect it until quote happens.
Jack Kredell: Something similar did happen not too far away that formed Roosevelt Lake. Right. So there are the theories imply that that that creek.
Ed Krumpe: Or there's been many you know, places that this kind of thing has happened, but that that has been remarkably stable. I mean, I don't fear it now. I mean, you have some amazing cloudburst and you have some flooding. The other thing, though, that it pointed out and we never thought about this. Pioneer Creek is there and it's always been there.
Ed Krumpe: And it's a wonderful jewel we have all these years we've been drinking the water out of Pioneer Creek with no need for any kind of treatment. We didn't get Giardia. We didn't get anything for 70 some years. Nobody caught anything from drinking that water. And so you think of that as a totally stable stream. But when the geologist from USGS, when they said, well, you realize this stream has been at two primary different locations and possibly three, and you really saw this great big sloping meadow where we harvested our hay and stuff.
Ed Krumpe: Pioneer creeks on one side. Well, on the other side, there's forest, but there's definitely a valley, and that's where it used to flow. So it has jumped back and forth. And in fact, what we call this beautiful hayfield and meadow is outward. It's outward from 95,000 acres behind us. But it was in geologic time that it was be on one side and be on the other.
Ed Krumpe: And the one lady said, you know, someday you're going to have a big event and it's going to be going down there again. And we never crossed our mind that that that that huge I think 20 acres or so was deposited from our wash and that the stream itself had moved back and forth in geologic time. That was fun to experience.
Jack Kredell: That's so interesting because we tend to romanticize wilderness as this unchanging place. When in reality it's a it's a very dynamic.
Ed Krumpe: Whole, constantly changing. So the other huge effect that I have witnessed in, well, since 1979 and it's now 2022 when I first went in for a number of decades, there was almost no cheatgrass. In fact, I was with a forest ecologist and he said, See, on these kind of sagebrush, a bunch blue bunchgrass hillsides that you see, there's a couple of big old trees and you see that kind of like yellow something underneath.
Ed Krumpe: He said. That's that's, that's dead grass. And because of the moisture that the trees do, that's cheatgrass. But he said that's not a good thing. That stuff can spread, spread out. It's it's pernicious. It's all through the area and it's just a major, major hazard hazard has almost no nutritional value for any kind of stalker, bighorn sheep or deer or anything.
Ed Krumpe: It's it's an invasive from Asia. It comes up before anything else germinates and it germinates soon and and it's very thin that the grass is just really fine, fine, thin. And so it germinates and dies and so then it becomes dead and able to carry fire. And it's able to carry fire right about the time that the native grasses are coming up and influencing and being pollinated and and spreading seed and stuff.
Ed Krumpe: So now we have across the West these massive cheatgrass fires that go ripping through. And it's not just that they burn, but that they they kill and suppress the native grasses. And so we just have cheatgrass everywhere. There up and down those drainages. And when I first started going in there, very little of it. And that's that's a huge change.
Ed Krumpe: And then we have had, you know, there's always been an invasion of noxious weeds in along some of the trails. We now we first everyone said it's backpackers with their ... soles that are no it, it's in the drainages, it comes in from birds, it comes in on the hair of elk and deer and stuff and they, there's been some programs, the Forest Service has done some eradication programs to try to try to control it.
Ed Krumpe: But the spot in that weed is, is really a pernicious problem. And then there is some rust skeleton, which is also pretty bad. So we and then cheatgrass and fire, those are invasive species, are they how do you say this, that they can tolerate harsher conditions so they often come in after disturbance, they're a disturbance related species. And so things that have thorns and can grow other places kind of come in to replace stuff.
Ed Krumpe: And so I've seen a lot of change that way too. And and so there's less for wildlife, less for people with stock That's that that's as big and pervasive in many ways as the fires been.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Which suggests that as remote as wilderness is that it's still connected with the rest of the globe.
Ed Krumpe: Yeah. You can't totally get away from it. Years ago, I'd have to look up the date. We got contacted by Idaho National Engineering Lab, and they'd. I was at a conference. They were doing Idaho Falls or somewhere, and they were talking about they had these air quality monitoring stations in one of the most pristine air sheds on earth where Titan, Antarctica, Patagonia, the Ural Mountains in Russia.
Ed Krumpe: And some of the most pristine air sheds where hopefully there would be zero anthropogenic smoke, smog or anything picked up. And I said to them after the presentation, I said, Well, what about Frank Church? And they said, you can't do that. They said, It's for service wilderness and you have to have this tripod and you have to have solar panels and stuff like that to do the sampling and it has to be checked regularly year round.
Ed Krumpe: And I said, We can do that. And I said, What? So they was and this was this is the early eighties. This is like $125,000 apparatus. They brought in and set this up and I mean it had a full methylation meteorological station and barometric pressure and all recorded on a data logger but it had this air quality sampling.
Ed Krumpe: It had these these ceramic discs. So they were they were sucking air in to get the finest particulates measurable by man. And we're talking microns and then.
Ed Krumpe: So they were they were sucking air in to get the finest particulates measurable by man. And we're talking microns. And then there was only two places in the nation we could send these. And I think Stanford had a place to test for, for this. And I think the other might have been MIT, but our stuff was sent to Stanford.
Ed Krumpe: But, you know, I thought, Wow, that's amazing. We have this air shed that's so far from any industry or anything that's great. We have this clean air shed. And I started to think about why do they want to monitor these pristine clean air sheds? Well, the reason they wanted to monitor is they wanted to be able to verify that the nuclear armament treaties, because it would pick up any, you know, strontium 90 or anything, it was floating around of somebody violating this.
Ed Krumpe: So, so nasty war actually funded the project that went on for quite a few years. But it is I mean, think about it. Where can you ever get a breath of clean air? They told me that probably the last breath of clean air on Earth was in the early 1950s in the Antarctic because from drilling core samples, ice below that, absolutely no anthropogenic contaminants after that, nuclear ions and stuff starts to show up.
Ed Krumpe: So, yeah, I mean, it's big, but it's still impacted by the outside world.
Jack Kredell: The great I didn't know that about the last breath of clean air. I suppose you could also melt the ice core and inhale some of that well.
Ed Krumpe: So the other thing that has been done there is there has been one or two studies where they came in and it's called paleo archeology, where they take core samples of the silt at the bottom of these high mountain lakes and seasonally you have striations just like tree rings where you have different flows and spring and you have more things stirred up.
Ed Krumpe: But from that you have pollen that settles out. And so from these mud cores are going back hundreds going back thousands of years. They can track the climate, climatic conditions because there's a climatic conditions change the tree species and stuff suddenly change. And so there has been documented that there's been roughly a three to 400 year cycle of colder periods, followed by three or 400 years of warmer periods.
Ed Krumpe: And students can actually see this when they hike down from the facility down Big Creek. There are places that there are some monster -- I mean, we're talking four foot diameter ponderosa pine and almost right beside them be we would size Douglas fir. Now those who do not grow in the same conditions, Ponderosa pine, you know needs lots of sunlight they're where the Doug fir is a shade tolerant and so how would you have something that needs hot dry conditions to grow like a pine and Doug fir that needs wet, cool, shady conditions?
Ed Krumpe: Well, the answer is, is it probably one was at the start of one of those periods and the other came in as a period was changing. And so that's that's something to see that they can just walk right by it on the trail.
Jack Kredell: Wow. That's pretty amazing.
Jack Kredell: How are you surviving with the flies? See the they're all attracted to this or that. That's great. It might be doing you, sir. maybe quickly. So you've got your your Ph.D. in 79, right.
Ed Krumpe: With 7879. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, totally. It probably shows the 79.
Jack Kredell: And then in.
Ed Krumpe: At Colorado State University. Yeah, I.
Jack Kredell: Think 1980,
Ed Krumpe: While I was here in 79, in the spring semester.
Jack Kredell: Okay then. So the following year, this region that Taylor sits in went from that primitive area right to the Frank Church river of no return wilderness, right. Did that entail any, any changes in how the land was managed or.
Ed Krumpe: that's a great question because there was a lot of contention about that. There are public hearings and the dean asked me to go present in Greenville, and it was at this huge, huge meeting room, and I was probably the only person there didn't have a cowboy hat on. But, you know, I talked to them about the advantages of wilderness, and that's one person asked me, well, how much more do we need?
Ed Krumpe: And I said, That's not the question. There is no more. There will only be less wilderness. So we need to take care of what we've got. And because it's there won't be more, it's a matter of how much less can we can we stand? And so they grudgingly nodded and smiled. But not a lot of change other than the Forest Service when it became wilderness.
Ed Krumpe: Then there is some additional regulation and things that we had to adhere to, or they were concerned about where we causing an impact and stuff. But but not a not a great change.
Ladino
Jennifer Ladino: My name is Jennifer Ladino and I'm a professor at the University of Idaho and the English Department. I'm also core faculty in environmental science, and I've been here since 2010, which is roughly when I started to get involved with the Taylor Wilderness Research Station through planning for the Semester in the Wild program, which we launched in 2013. And I was part of the interdisciplinary team that helped put that together.
Jennifer Ladino: So basically I learned about Taylor when I was at my new faculty orientation, and someone came and spoke about this magical place that was, you know, 35 miles in by foot or a 30 minute bus plane ride, and that we sometimes brought students into the space and researchers. And I was like, pick me. And so I went and introduced myself to Steve Holland Horse back then and got involved with the planning for for a semester in the wild to sort of ingratiate myself into that that planning phase and was really fortunate to be part of the initial cohort of people that taught in and learned this semester in the wild.
Jennifer Ladino: So that is my early relationship with what is affectionately called the Taylor Ranch.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk about Semester in the Wild, what it is, and what some of the goals are for the program?
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think one of the early taglines we came up with was America's Wildest Classroom. Right. Like, this is a really unique place for students to spend time. And the two things that I think make it the most unique are one is in this giant wilderness area, the largest in the lower 48, the Frank Church River of No Return.
Jennifer Ladino: And then students get to spend the full semester there. And that's a really unique opportunity for them. There's nothing quite like it that I know of in the US. And the other thing is that we we deliberately designed it to be an interdisciplinary curriculum with a humanities presence. So it's not that they're just out there learning river ecology or wildlife biology, but that they're also writing and they're reading and they're thinking about the sort of human dimensions of this wilderness.
Jennifer Ladino: And we have that as a core piece of the curriculum from the start. And I think that makes it really unique as well. I can keep going. No, I mean, I'm trying to work on shorter interview answers. I'm a rambler in job interviews, but in this sort of thing.
Jack Kredell: You know, not as much like imagined. Imagine somebody who doesn't know anything about the program.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, maybe.
Jack Kredell: Even a dry Idaho student. Yeah. Like, this is all very good information.
Jennifer Ladino: Well, and they need to do a better job at telling their story because it is such a unique opportunity for students. They spend the fall semester there often will end, I think, right around Thanksgiving break because the weather gets too too bad to keep the buildings open. But students are there for a good three months and faculty rotate in and out and teach their courses in sort of a block format.
Jennifer Ladino: So that works really well. There's focused time for students to really deeply engage with the material for one course and really get to know one faculty member at a time. Sometimes we go in in teams and that works really well as as well. But yeah, we, we design in a lot of overlap between the courses and synergy. You know, we might read the same text but read it in the environmental history course as well as in the environmental writing course.
Jennifer Ladino: Right. So you're tackling it from both the historical perspective and the perspective of sort of close analysis of language. One of my favorite moments in the first couple of years was thinking closely about the language of the Wilderness Act. So the word untrammeled, for instance, is really a tricky one, and it's been the source of a lot of discussion and some controversy and sort of the legal world like what does it mean to say that this is an untrammeled space?
Jennifer Ladino: And so bringing your sort of literary studies, English major, English professor lands to bear on sort of the language of that legal document. It was really, really fascinating. And it was a great way to teach students sort of our bread and butter skill of close reading, you know, paying attention to the connotations and the richness of language and to think about what the Wilderness Act meant when it was made in 1964 and what it means, you know, 50 plus years later.
Jennifer Ladino: So that sort of synergy, I think, makes the program really fascinating and distinctive.
Jack Kredell: Are there any tensions between this idea of wilderness as untrammeled space and trampled space? Taylor. Taylor as a human space, human environment that is ensconced within a much larger wilderness. Are there any tensions between those two things, or is it or is or are they productive tensions maybe?
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah. I mean, the whole idea of wilderness is full of tensions, right? Even the word and trampled means we sort of think of it as meaning like untouched or inhibited. And that is kind of what it means. But what that also implies as a kind of free item, Right? So like a freedom to for wild horses to remain wild is part of it.
Jennifer Ladino: So that implies a very hands off participation in or lack of from humans. And so I think there's this tension between soaring wilderness as both a sort of that antithesis to civilization, something that is not us, but because we created it, because it was sort of our idea to sort of make wilderness a designated space. And it's always had, you know, the imprint of of human presence.
Jennifer Ladino: And so you can't fully separate out, you know, wilderness from civilization, especially in a place like Taylor, where you've got, you know, planes landing and you've got horses and you have hunters coming through. And there's plenty of activity that bears the mark of of humans. Right. And the humans live there most of the year. So that's one of the tensions.
Jennifer Ladino: I mean, the wilderness, there's so much so much to it. You know, historically, if you think back to just what it means and what it how it registers emotionally to people, right? Like in the 19th century, it was a scary thing, Like it was a terrifying place. The word wilderness had connotations of fear and, you know, awesomeness and that sense of of sublime sort of fascination and horror.
Jennifer Ladino: And it was something that because of that, you know, Western European colonists thought they needed to sort of tame. And you see some of that legacy and just the idea of sort of managing wilderness, right? We manage it and some National Park Service have spaces have managed wilderness that's maybe not been officially designated, but is sort of earmarked for that.
Jennifer Ladino: And so they manage it as such. So, you know, starting around the end of the 19th century and you can read environmental historians on this, but we've reached we European colonists reached the end of the mainland. US began to sort of have some anxiety about running out of sort of nature. Right. And feeling like the frontier was closed.
Jennifer Ladino: You have the famous frontier thesis in 1890. And so the the emotional tenor of what wilderness meant sort of flipped, I think, at that point. And it became this this special place that we needed to actually not tame and sort of control, but like take care of and preserve. And it started to take on these this very different definition of wilderness as not only antithetical to sort of civilization, but a kind of cure or a place to go and recover from, you know, excessive civilization.
Jennifer Ladino: And what someone like Theodore Roosevelt might call the sort of softness of over civilization that was, you know, demasculating the American population. So, yeah, the tensions are really they're historical, they're legal, and they're, I think, emotional in certain ways. I could say more about that, Right. That piece, maybe.
Jack Kredell: There's a lot there.
Jennifer Ladino: I yeah.
Jack Kredell: One thing that is in keeping with wilderness doctrine about Taylor is is that with the exception of sort of the caretaker or caretaker or the station manager.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: It, it is a place of visitations. Yeah. and numerous comings and goings.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jack Kredell: And I'm wondering as, as a visitor yourself. Yeah. What, what do you take away from Taylor when you leave or it's like when you get back home or what stays with you or what have you been.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's almost like a cleanse, like a mind body cleanse, right? Like you, you get out there and I haven't walked in, which I think would be a different kind of entryway or gateway into the Taylor sort of wilderness space. But when you come in by plane and it's it's loud in those small planes and it's a little unsteady and you're, you know, looking out over this vast expanse of just like mountain range after mountain range.
Jennifer Ladino: And it's stunning to fly in and see that there's just the bigness of it, but it's still quite loud. And you're in this contraption in this machine and you land on what appears to be a, you know, very dangerous airstrip that's made of grass and not very long. And the plane lands and the engine turns off and the propeller stops and suddenly it's just completely quiet and still.
Jennifer Ladino: Right. Maybe you hear big creak, maybe sort of gurgling off to the side. Maybe someone greets you. See, there's a human there. Probably someone will greet you, the manager. Or if you're teaching in semester in the wild, it could be the faculty member that you're going to high five in tag team out of. There could be the students who are waiting to meet you for the first time or give you a hug if you're meeting them for the second time.
Jennifer Ladino: So there is always a human element, but like it gets slow and quiet from the very beginning. And so from that point on, it feels like you just kind of sad layers in a way, and you you fluff off, you know, the veil, like continuous partial attention, right. That most of us live in in the world. You know, you've got people checking their phones and scrolling and that doesn't happen there.
Jennifer Ladino: There's no cell signal. They do have wi fi that seems to be getting better. And better every year. And you can, you know, check in as needed. But it's not constant. It's not continuous. So there's that's one layer that I think you kind of shed right away. And it just feels like you pare things down to the essentials and you kind of recalibrate your priorities a little bit, which is, again, a kind of mind body cleanse where you think and feel like what's important, what's kind of elemental or bedrock in your in your life.
Jennifer Ladino: And there's something kind of magic about the place that I don't know how that could not happen to you. Right. And I've seen it happen with every single student that has done this semester in the Wild program and the faculty as well. So then, you know, I can talk more about what it's like to be there. But when you go back to, you know, quote unquote, civilization, it can be a little shocking at first, especially for students who have spent several months and not left at all.
Jennifer Ladino: They find it pretty overwhelming. And it's almost like a reentry. We've actually worked with international programs, officers to talk about like reentry tips for going from one culture or one foreign country to another to your home country, and having it be really different when you return and not always in good ways. So, you know, it feels really loud.
Jennifer Ladino: It feels really busy. The grocery store has so much to offer and you don't know where to start. So things like that, I think, hit students really hard. For me as faculty, it's like, my inbox has thousands of emails in it that I didn't, you know, I let slide because I was, you know, embracing the experience of being there.
Jennifer Ladino: And yet somehow there's like a calmness that I think, at least for me really sticks with you. Having spent a week or ten days in a wilderness, it's that quietness that sticks with you. It lingers.
Jack Kredell: I want to know what with that.
Unknown: Sad state of feeling elemental, mean for.
Jack Kredell: You personally. It's like, what? What? What is elemental.
Unknown: For you when you get to Taylor?
Jennifer Ladino: That's a hard question. I hadn't thought or used the word elemental until today, so I have to think about this a little bit. I mean, I mean, you think about just the elements, right? Like there's water and you can constantly hear Big Creek, There's fresh air. It smells nice. It feels very clean. That's not I mean, unless you're there during a smoky time, which I haven't been, but that would be really different, a different element, I guess fire would be involved in that case.
Jennifer Ladino: But you see the residue of of fire. The history of fire on the landscape when you're flying over and in certain parts of the wilderness. What's the other element went, yeah, gosh, plenty of wind. The plane, you know, you feel you're riding in on an air and that's pretty amazing. Slash scary. But I think what I mean is more like you become cognizant of your Animality, right?
Jennifer Ladino: Like your basic ness, your fleshy, embodied nature, Like we are wild animals. And when you're living in close quarters with other wild animals, right, you can see bears coming. The bears will come into the Taylor complex and, you know, eat apples, for example. You know that there are cougars. Even if you don't see them, you might hear wolves.
Jennifer Ladino: You can see bighorn sheep up on the benches just walking up straight up from the the research station, smaller examples would be like aphids that would interrupt our classrooms, our classrooms, are outdoor classrooms, which might consist of, you know, walking up to a ridge and sitting or there's one sort of outdoor classroom that was a set of tree stumps where you just sit in a circle and sit on the airstrip.
Jennifer Ladino: That was actually out near the airstrip where the planes land. And so I think being reminded that you co inhabit this place with other wild creatures is elemental in the sense that it reminds you of your basic animal nature. So that's kind of what I mean. And then to go back to the like sloughing off layers, thinking, I mean, every student that I saw and myself included, you know, you don't you don't sort of put yourself together in the same way.
Jennifer Ladino: There as you might in a professional setting on a campus. Women stopped wearing makeup. They didn't save their legs. They might not use deodorant, they might not shower as much. There's there was a kind of naturalization process, I guess, for all of us that makes you feel more at home for in the place and maybe in your your body and who you are.
Jennifer Ladino: I had some really interesting conversations with the young women about about this. Well, why do I shave my legs normally? Like as is this something that is important to me to do, you know? And it makes it it's like a kind of banal example of rethinking someone's priorities. Right? And it's like, what matters to me and where did I get that idea that that's something I should do, you know, back in reality.
Jennifer Ladino: So, yeah, elemental, basic, fundamental, natural. I mean, natural is another loaded word that, you know, we can talk more about. But, you know, we are natural, we are a wilderness is our birth place to kind of piggyback on one of my collaborators at Columbia and semester in the while, that was what he would sort of preach. And he was almost like a preacher to these students.
Jennifer Ladino: They loved his classes because he would just talk and talk and talk about wilderness and history and what does it mean to us? And he would talk about it as our home. It's our sort of primary home. So when you come into a wilderness area, it's like coming home. And that really resonated with with me and a lot of the students. Mosquitoes, for example...
Jack Kredell: There I, I like this shot. It has a lot of there's a lot of shadow.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah I can see the sun.
Jack Kredell: As it.
Jennifer Ladino: Moved now.
Jack Kredell: So it's interesting Some people hate it. I've always liked.
Jennifer Ladino: It. Yeah, it's sparkly. Yeah, I don't mind it as long as I look good. It's all the matter.
Jack Kredell: as a, as a scholar of emotion and aspect, actually, no, it has. Yeah. No. Yeah. As a scholar of human emotion and exercise.
Unknown: But, it's just as a scholar and keen observer of emotion and aspect.
Jack Kredell: What what kinds of aspects do you see in students when they, when they arrive at Taylor.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, there's, I mean this is going to sound cliche, but the first thing that comes to mind is this kind of childlike joy. Like, they're just so happy, you know, at least at times. I mean, there are times, of course, when like with any foreign travel, you know, they have that curve right, where you're like, you're high and then you kind of go through a low point and then you come back out of it at the end of your journey.
Jennifer Ladino: Sometimes there's a little bit of that and the ups and downs. But I think these there are moments of sort of pure innocence, just like joy with again, this comes back to that like unmasking or sloughing off of pretensions and and these are the layers that we sort of use to put our identities together and this kind of uninhibitedness.
Jennifer Ladino: Maybe this comes back to being untrammeled, right? Like, it's not just the wilderness, it's untrammeled, it's the the people that go there and they somehow are free in that same kind of way, uninhibited. But yeah, there's a joyfulness, a playfulness. A lot of students, you know, they made up games, they wrote songs together. There were, you know, when they cooked meals, they were goofy.
Jennifer Ladino: It was, you know, just fun. They were just having fun, you know, in a way that was not like unpretentious, no judgment. And that's why I say childlike, I guess, is just kind of. Yeah, just pure, pure joy in moments. I mean, they I asked them about emotions. It's been a while since I've thought about this. I'd have to look back at some of their essays and things, but just that the curiosity of learning a new place of planning and mapping out and packing for a backpacking trip, for example, that kind of curious inquiry.
Jennifer Ladino: And I do think curiosity is a kind of emotion. You could call it an affect, but in this case I feel like it is a joyful embrace of newness and a kind of wonder, I guess would be another one. I'm kind of wanting to know more, which is kind of what the noun form of wonder or what the verb form of wonder, I guess is, is to wonder about something, right?
Jennifer Ladino: If the noun form is an emotion, you feel a sense of wonder, then the verb form is like wanting to know more about that. And I think you see a lot of both of those things among students and faculty in Semester in the Wild, a sense of wanting to learn about this place too, and learning being both an intellectual process, right, and an emotional one.
Jennifer Ladino: I think there's a kind of embodied knowledge that is both intellectual and kind of affective or emotional that that we all embrace there. That is how learning should happen, in my opinion. And Kayla's other emotions. I mean, certainly I had students write about encounters with other animals and there were some really fun moments. And again, it's maybe a little fear and ah, at first, but I want to come back to wonder, because to me, Wonder is a kind of less intense, more manageable form of where you're not maybe in that fight or flight or freeze feeling, but you're feeling a sense of curiosity and exploration.
Jennifer Ladino: And maybe I'm sure students felt both. If it was a rattlesnake encounter, for example, there's a lot of rattlesnakes out there in the heat of the summer, which I was never, never there for that part. I always went later in the fall or encountering a bear or another large predator. Certainly could be a little bit of both. But yeah, lots of lots of wonder.
Jennifer Ladino: and I, yeah, I think a lot of it is with non-human animals. But you had students who were fascinated by plants who would sit for hours and study and draw, which we did a lot of sketching and that sort of journaling. So that's a fascination too, that I think is pretty unique to that learning experience and that that environment, you could do that in a traditional campus classroom.
Jennifer Ladino: You know, you could go to the arboretum and sit, but most classes are pretty tightly constrained in terms of time, whereas semester in the wild, you feel like you have all the time in the world. It really is. We called it tailor time and time is really slow there and it just seems like there's so many hours in the day and the days are long and we try to keep class time fairly compressed so that students have, you know, the opportunity to explore and learn at their leisure.
Jennifer Ladino: I know some students would probably bristle at what I'm saying because often they felt the same stresses and pressures to get work done that that students feel on campus. And we do work them pretty hard. There's a rigorous learning curriculum that they have to have to do, but I think, you know, they learn skills really fast, like much faster than students who have all the distractions of a traditional campus.
Jennifer Ladino: Like they could get close reading in a session and like, go out and practice it and come back and teach it to me the next day and teach it to each other. Whereas on campus we spend, you know, the semester kind of doing close reading bootcamp and like doing that, doing drills basically, and kind of learning the skill over and over again.
Jennifer Ladino: So they need a little less, a little less reinforcement. It's things click quickly there. In my experience, which I attribute to the the kind of purity of the lack of distractions, primarily I forgot where the start I feel like.
Jack Kredell: So it's a good discipline area.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Strong disciplinarian. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Have you had any memorable animal encounters?
Jennifer Ladino: Not there. No, not that I can talk about it. Taylor.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. The idea of wilderness as a home is very interesting to me because I, I personally don't feel that way. Yeah, And for, for many of us, it is not a home, but it is. It is a home for for wild animals.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: and I wonder if you or your students have, have felt the need to acclimatize to this home that animals spend all of their time in. And you. Very little.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: And if that's part of this rehoming process for sure.
Jennifer Ladino: I mean, I think in the early years of the program when students hiked in, they had a much easier time adapting to life there. Some students have never backpacked, for example, never carried a backpack. And so having that opportunity to carry some of their stuff and obviously not all of it, and to kind of meander their way to, you know, to the heart of the wilderness was a much different and easier way to acclimatize.
Jennifer Ladino: And sure, I mean, to depending on people's experience levels and what they expected coming into this program, some were more immediately at home than others. It might take some time. Yeah. I mean, in some people, you know, anxiety, I'm sure about like the openness, you know, it's almost a kind of agoraphobia to feel like you're so remote and it's so open and help as far away.
Jennifer Ladino: Like that's part of that's one definition of agoraphobia. It's like feeling like you're so in such a remote, open space that you're on your own and you kind of are like, there are days when the planes can't fly because the weather is too bad and you just hope you don't break something or get really sick during one of those weather periods.
Jennifer Ladino: So it's yeah, I think that's part of the excitement for some people is that you, you know, part of being in a wilderness area is accepting a little bit of risk. That's part of the maybe adventure that some recreational is look for. You know, the more thrill seeking folks the campus itself, the Taylor Wilderness research Station itself feels very comfortable to some students, to comfortable like they wanted it to be rougher, like they didn't want to stay in a nice cabin.
Jennifer Ladino: Right. And so after the first few years, with the help of the League Foundation, we were able to put together some wall tents. So now the students live in wall tents, which they share with two or three other students. And so those are much more humble. You know, they do have ways of heating. I think they've got a little wood stoves in there where they can heat it when it gets really cold, but they're nice.
Jennifer Ladino: So you can hear the creak still that you feel a little bit more like you're not in a house. So that's I guess that's a different way of thinking about home, isn't it? Like feeling a level of comfort and at home in a in a building. So if you take the building away, then you're sort of a little bit more at home in the wilderness, you can say.
Jennifer Ladino: But I think for me, I had spent a lot of years as a park ranger and it felt very familiar to be on a small piece of land with very old buildings and a community of workers and learners that you sort of are sharing a mission with. To me, that was what I did for 13 summers with the National Park Service.
Jennifer Ladino: And so I wasn't disoriented or ill at ease upon entering. But yeah, it would be different for for different people, for sure. It's I mean, the word this reminds me a little bit of the word bewilder or bewilderment, which is all about feeling lost or disoriented and it comes from the verb wilder, which used to mean to like, lead somebody astray or to like, be led astray.
Jennifer Ladino: So that's really interesting to think about how wilderness can be disorienting, unsettling, confounding kind of experience. And I think some students wish it was more like that, like they needed a little more of that risk. And then for others, it was it was a lot all at once. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. I mean, you can implying that that's a vital part of Taylor's educational platform and environment.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, it is. Absolutely. And I think flexibility, you know, it's one of those areas where, like I was saying, with planes and weather systems, there is a lot of uncertainty even now, even as as civilized as we've made it and safe as we've made it. Of course, safety is a huge priority for the program. It still has elements of the unknown, the unexpected.
Jennifer Ladino: You might have to shift gears partway through a lesson if you know a rainstorm comes. Once we had a students stop class because it was raining outside and she wanted to just listen to that for a while and and like be present with the storm. So we stopped class and did that. I think it forces you to have a kind of flexible teaching style, which always was my preferred mode anyway, but even more so in a wilderness area.
Jennifer Ladino: So yeah, uncertainty, flexibility, a little bit of confounding. Yes, I guess. And if you're out, you know, on a trail or off a trail and sort of exploring, there's plenty of opportunity for that sort of thing. Just right off the right off the campus. We got Pioneer Creek, for example. My colleague Scott Slovic has a great essay about getting that lost, but going on a very epic hike with a student at Pioneer Creek.
Jennifer Ladino: So you should ask him about that. He wrote about it in this book that I'm holding. Okay. Idaho, Leonard is considered. You should pick it up. It's great book 2016.
Jack Kredell: Yeah I know.
Jennifer Ladino: I think it's 2016.
Jack Kredell: Who has doing work on Pioneer Creek?
Jennifer Ladino: no, wait.
Jack Kredell: Grace. Pervan. Yeah, so. okay.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. She works with Marise.
Jennifer Ladino: Okay.
Jack Kredell: That's very interesting.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, Yeah. Getting lost as, as part of it, I think. And I didn't go on any of the backpacking trips with the students I really wish I had. But you can ask Scott or Adam about that, that experience, you know, and I don't think there were any major losses, although other things exciting things happened. But yeah, yeah. You feel you feel pretty out there.
Jennifer Ladino: I mean, you are out there, you're far from health services, for example, far from roads. So to me that's a nice feeling. But I think for other people it may not be so nice. And I mean, one of the things people value about wilderness traditionally is just knowing that it's there, whether you can personally go to it or want to go to it or not.
Jennifer Ladino: It's an idea. It's a it's a material thing, but it's also an idea. And people like to know that we have wilderness that is there, you know, that means something.
Jack Kredell: To have the option of discomfort, even if you take it.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah, yeah. Knowing that other people are climbing Mount Everest and you don't have to like. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, yeah. I want to work with you far too because I, I want to do it. These are on, on wilderness with you.
Jennifer Ladino: Yeah. I would need to probably prep a bit for that. I No.
Jack Kredell: No. Europe or No, my, my wheels are spinning but I want to, I want to. Let's just end with, given the value that you outlined for retailers educational prices, what, what you, what would you like to see for Taylor's future?
Jennifer Ladino: That's a great question. I mean, the semester in the wild program could grow. We've we've never maxed out the number of students that could benefit from it. So one quick answer is just better recruiting. You know, honestly, for that program, I think we could we could do more to get the word out, to tell the story about how unique Semester in the Wild is as a program.
Jennifer Ladino: We don't want it to get too big. I mean, for me as an educator, like right around a dozen is pretty optimal. But I think we can hold upwards even close to 20. I'm pretty sure I'd have to check that as always, a fine line, right? Because you don't want to argue that we need to get more people into the wilderness because then, you know, at what point does it become overpopulated or does it lose some of that magic character?
Jennifer Ladino: But I would love to see more researchers and scholars from all of the disciplines be invited and have opportunities to use that space. Right? We've got the writing in the wild fellowship that our creative writing students get to take advantage of it as an application process. Three of them go every fall, late summer or early fall, and that's cool.
Jennifer Ladino: So more opportunities like that for for faculty. I'd love to see it be a place for percolating sort of interdisciplinary collaboration. For example, beyond the Semester in the Wild program, you know, there are faculty doing really interesting work on campus that, you know, if we did retreats there, I think, you know, we could make even more progress together in these concentrated bursts of time that are so rare and valuable for for faculty researchers.
Jennifer Ladino: You know, I don't know how I feel about sort of opening up to broader publics beyond the university, but yeah, I'd have to think about that. But it is such a unique and special place, so I part of you really wants to share it with, with more people, you know, get people out there, but without crossing that line of changing it.
Jennifer Ladino: But that's a conversation for another time. The tension between change and stasis, that's very much a part of what wilderness is, especially with climate change and impacts of that. I think that's a great note to end on, but.
Jack Kredell: I like to have this. I should have warned you, I, I like to have awkward pauses at the ends of ideas. Yeah, I could, I could end videos there.
Jennifer Ladino: yeah.
Jack Kredell: And you like to fill them up.
Jennifer Ladino: I know. Sorry I sort of I've been. I've been doing really well. I thought I normally I do a lot more filling.
Jack Kredell: that was, We, we have almost 40 minutes right there.
Jennifer Ladino: great.
Peven
Jack Kredell: So imagine an audience member who doesn't know you obviously doesn't know your research or anything about this kind of research. But I think if we take that approach, it'll be pretty good. So to start out, just introduce yourself and then maybe how you how you learned about Taylor or how you became associated with Taylor. So, like Grace Piven, and then you're studying for your passion, hydrology or whatever.
Jack Kredell: And then tell us how you how you got to Taylor.
Grace Peven: Yeah. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. My name is Grace Peven, and I'm a Ph.D. student in the Water Resources Program at University of Idaho in Moscow. I first learned about Taylor when I was looking for graduate programs, and I came across some water research being done by my advisor, Dr. Mary Engles, out at Taylor. And I was immediately interested because I had heard about Taylor before and that it was right in the middle of the Frank Church wilderness, and I thought that would be a really interesting place to do research because it's a natural laboratory and we can learn a lot about natural system ecosystems and watersheds out here.
Grace Peven: So based on like what I wanted to do with my career, I felt that it would be a really good match for me. So I contacted my advisor and she was studying springs out here and just started inventorying and monitoring springs and getting them on the map since a lot of them have not been mapped out here at all.
Grace Peven: So that was part of our part of the project that I was joining in on.
Jack Kredell: And then now can you excuse me?
Jack Kredell: So, so what is your project? You know, if you could describe it.
Grace Peven: Yeah. Basically, my research is detecting and understanding change, environmental change around spring ecosystems. And so, especially under the context of climate change and changing water conditions, we're seeing snowmelt happen earlier and earlier each year with a lot of differences in timing and in quantity on the landscape and the watershed and watersheds around Taylor are all snowmelt dependent and and they feed downstream water sources throughout the whole Columbia Salmon River and Columbia Basin.
Jack Kredell: Wait in the.
Grace Peven: Project.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Tell us about your research project.
Grace Peven: Cool. So basically my research is detecting and understanding change. And under the context of climate change in Headwaters Spring, ecosystems around Taylor Ranch. So basically the motivation for this project comes from observing climate change, especially in the western U.S. We're seeing earlier snowmelt, timing and changes in quantity of snow throughout the winter and also how quickly it melts off in the springtime.
Grace Peven: So we're our water resources are changing and they're changing fairly rapidly. And a lot of our water that we that we rely on downstream comes starts at these springs up in the headwaters in the mountains. So they're really important water resources to study. And they've been pretty understudied in this part of the country and they're really important here too, especially being in kind of a semi-arid climate.
Grace Peven: They're often like the only water resources for four miles for wildlife and and plants. So they they provide a pretty important ecosystem. So they're important to monitor and study and a lot of these springs out here have never been mapped. There's been a few researchers in the past that have started mapping these springs, but they haven't really been studied long term.
Grace Peven: And over time. So what I'm doing is measuring discharge and flow at these springs to understand how they're changing in the in the dry season, in the summer season. So from May to October, I'll come out here and measure discharge and soil moisture and water quality measurements as an indicator of change. And to understand how how the springs are reacting to changes in snowmelt, timing and precipitation.
Grace Peven: So so after I collect my my field measurements, I'll use remote sensing to correlate the satellite imagery with the field measurements I've been taking this summer and using the satellite imagery. It's a really powerful tool to look back in time, to understand, to start building a dataset over time. That tells us how these springs have been changing.
Jack Kredell: I like to include some awkward silence at the end in order to as a buffer for cutting.
Grace Peven: Okay. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Sort of cool you out.
Grace Peven: Yeah. Let me know if you want me to, like, explain any aspect more or if that made sense.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk about the process of locating springs? I know that you rely on some remote sensing data cuts. That's not the entire picture, right?
Grace Peven: Yeah. Some of these springs were previously mapped by a couple previous grad students, but there's a lot of springs that are still unmapped on the landscape. And I found that the more time I spend out here, the more intuitive the location of springs are. So. And it changes throughout, throughout the year. I found that in April and May the springs were fairly obvious on the landscape because they stuck out their coloration of the riparian vegetation around the spring footprint was pretty unique.
Grace Peven: So as I'm spending a lot of time out here and hiking around, it's it's more obvious where the springs are based, based on that vegetation. And they really look like islands, terrestrial islands on the landscape a lot of the time. Sometimes they'll start at at the headwaters of a stream and then continue down and you can see that classic riparian corridor.
Grace Peven: But other times, they they kind of look like terrestrial islands on the landscape. They'll be this kind of random patch of green that sticks out, especially in this landscape where we've experienced so many fires. And it's it's pretty burnt up and exposed. The springs stick out like a sore thumb. And in this watershed in particular.
Jack Kredell: Do you ever feel excitement when you're spring hunting?
Grace Peven: Yeah. Yeah, it's really exciting. Most likely. I'm not the first person that's ever been to these some of these springs, but it can feel that way, especially out hiking by myself over the time. And if I spot a spring from a distance and then make it my mission to get up to that spring and sometimes it isn't a spring and, and that's okay.
Grace Peven: And sometimes it is a spring. And that's really exciting to get it on the map and measure the water and look at the vegetation and kind of get to know this new little island ecosystem. It's definitely exciting.
Jack Kredell: Why are you drawn specifically to the area around Taylor Ranch? Having gone on one of these hikes with you, it's pretty arduous. There's a lot of elevation and it's it's not easy fieldwork. What what motivates you to get out of bed and do these these hikes in order to collect your your data?
Grace Peven: You. I think I'm drawn to this landscape because of how rugged and inaccessible it feels. I think in these these places that are not easy for humans to to navigate and hike around, I think you can find some of the most wild pockets, whether that be like a cool old growth stand or wildlife or a game trail or a shed on the trail.
Grace Peven: I think you can find you can find a lot and that kind of removes you from from everyday conveniences. And you know what we've grown used to in our, like built, very built environment. So it feels like kind of a antithesis to that. And I think I think that that draws me to this landscape. And I mean, it's just it's very it's very rugged and kind of unkempt and fire and other disturbances are allowed to just run their course and do what they're supposed to do.
Grace Peven: And it's really special to have have these places conserved and protected still. And we can learn and we can learn a lot about about ecology and ecosystems and water, water in these places that are just left to do what they're supposed to do.
Grace Peven: So for us, it's my favorite time. Yeah, you're right in the sun. I feel like maybe it's important to mention that they're not unaffected by our activities, though.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, you should see how we frame that.
Grace Peven: I think tagged on to what I just said. But, yeah, I don't know how you would like, mesh that in. Just tagged on to what I just said about, like, this being a natural conserved area and it's still affected by human activities because all of our water, the water cycle in particular is. Are you recording oxer the water The water cycle?
Grace Peven: The water cycle in particular is you connects everything. So just because this this landscape is removed from cities and towns and our built infrastructure and environment, it doesn't mean that it's not affected by what we do. It can feel like when you're in the middle of the mountains here that, you know, this is an untouched landscape and it hasn't been been touched by modern day industry and and pollution that we see in other places.
Grace Peven: But there's, you know, global regional cycles and processes that connect everywhere, especially the water cycle, the, you know, what we emit into the atmosphere. It gets carried through our clouds and our water and then gets deposited in other places in like really wild places like, like the Frank Church around Taylor. So that's part of studying, studying springs, that's part of studying springs is that they, they are they're affected by the water is sourced from snowmelt or precipitation.
Grace Peven: At some point it's probably not sourced from the previous year. It takes a long time for that precipitation and snowmelt to reach this spring. On its surface, but it carries with it whatever at that time was present in the atmosphere. And and and so we do see we do see those impacts even in a place like this.
Jack Kredell: Are you ever concerned about your own personal impact on these very tiny little ecosystems?
Grace Peven: Yeah, yeah, I definitely think about that. I, I like to have the mindset that I'm a visitor in these places. Sometimes I do feel bad when I visit springs and I spook up a deer or I can see a lot, lots of bear scat and animal sign. I feel like I'm walking into someone's home without being invited. And I think that's that's unfortunate what science can be sometimes to like, better understand something.
Grace Peven: You do have to have some kind of impact, but you can minimize the impact as much as possible. So when I get to a spring, I try not to step right in the water. I try not to crush plants. I try to be very mindful of where I'm stepping. But the measurements I'm taking are really are really low impact capturing water, measuring discharge, and then releasing that water flowing back downstream.
Grace Peven: So I don't feel like I'm taking a lot from the environment. I like to think that I am a respecting it more by trying to understand it better and like trying to give it a voice.
Jack Kredell: Like a deer. Though you also come to the spring for water. Can you can you talk about that, that commonality between you and and the wild animals that use the springs? In particular, the game trails, which are so important to your work, in a way.
Grace Peven: Yeah. I feel like I rely on the mule deer out here a lot for the trails that they make. And nine times out of ten, there's a really nice game trail leading to a spring, which also tells you how important these these places are in the landscape. They act as a refuge for wildlife in really dry times of the year.
Grace Peven: But yeah, I think I think we can't separate humans from the natural world like we humans have always been here since time immemorial. And have used these springs and maybe they're not used to their to the same extent that they used to be used. But I'm out hiking around here and I need to get to this spring to refill my refill my water bottle.
Grace Peven: So I also rely on them to do this work and and to feed myself.
Jack Kredell: You've had a number of pitches now to right. Can you can you talk about what what has stayed with you when you're you're away from Taylor. Like what what have you learned or encountered here but that stays with you when you when you get back home.
Grace Peven: That's a good question. What has stayed with me?
Jack Kredell: I'll put it another way, Taylor. Taylor is a place of comings and goings, with the exception of the caretaker researcher conduct research. And then they leave and come back. And maybe they leave permanently. And I'm wondering what what sticks with people or you in particular, once you've you've left the place?
Grace Peven: Well, I think obviously, the contrast between how wild this place is versus, you know, going back to to Moscow or a city or town, the extent of of this area and how how larger than area is is conserved and protected. Here is is kind of unfathomable when you are just driving, driving on a road, driving on a highway, going hopping from town to town.
Grace Peven: And you're constantly surrounded by built the built environment. And I think it's really it can be startling to come out here and see that exact opposite phenomenon. I think what for me, because I come back about once a month and that's been really interesting to come back and forth and just see. It gives me a unique perspective for how things change over time, because I think when you live and stay in a place over time, those changes between seasons are really subtle.
Grace Peven: But to come back once a month, those changes are really, really apparent and the whole hillside is green. And then the next month, it's it's dried out a lot or it's smoky in July now are coming back to these springs to a lot of the times, you know, I'm measuring quantitative data, but a lot of the time what what strikes me is the kind of qualitative feeling that I get when I come back to these springs and see how they've changed over time.
Grace Peven: That is hard, is hard to quantify and put a number to. But, you know, you can just tell like it smells different here. There's different flowers or shrubs flowering right now that weren't here a month ago or it feels like a little hotter at the spring or a little cooler at the spring. So I think that's what's really valuable about coming in and out of Taylor is just is that outside perspective of change?
Jack Kredell: When I was talking to the wildlife biologist Maurice Hornocker, he said that fuel is a very important thing when conducting science because we can often get overly dependent on satellite imagery or other forms of remote sensing. But it's important to have a sense of what it's like in order to understand change, especially subtle environmental change cues.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk maybe a little bit more about how. How fuel and, one's own kind of personal relationship to the the the research object can actually be scientific.
Grace Peven: Yeah. Yeah. I think remote sensing and other tools are really powerful, powerful tools to study the environment. But I don't think anything replaces being out in the fields and and exploring without necessarily collecting quantitative data, which you can do in the field, but just getting a sense of like how how these ecosystems or environments, forests and whatever you're studying, how how they feel, how they smell, what are the sounds it gives you it, it inspires you to, to study and understand these systems even more.
Grace Peven: Being physically in the place because you build you build this connection and relationship with that place, especially when you come back multiple times and start really getting to know these places intimately. I don't think that that, you know, technology can really replace replace. I think it's really important as scientists to be out in the fields and on the ground, seeing with all of your senses what you can, what you can observe from these places.
Jack Kredell: yeah.
Grace Peven: Yeah. No worries.
Jack Kredell: Or maybe I'll just do it like this. But just when you when you when you answer, just talk to the camera.
Grace Peven: am I looking at you too much?
Jack Kredell: No, no, no. That's why that's why I'm always.
Grace Peven: not. gotcha. Not like looking down on the ground. Yeah. Okay.
Jack Kredell: That's. That's why I don't want to do that. And I'm not going to do it.
Grace Peven: I know. It's okay. I can.
Jack Kredell: no, no. It's too awkward. It's too often.
Grace Peven: It's. It's certainly more comfortable, like speaking to a person.
Jack Kredell: let's see if this is a hard question. What is a spring?
Grace Peven: What is a spring? A spring is the surface expression of groundwater. So it's where surface water and groundwater interact and interface. And, you know, that's like the most that's the most simple definition, is that it's a surface expression of groundwater. More technically, it's where the aquifer meets the surface, and that's often controlled by geology that can be through fault lines or contacts, which is where bedrock comes up, meets the surface and and it's often and impermeable rock layer that that's the base of an aquifer.
Grace Peven: And through whatever geologic processes make it this way, that impermeable rock layer is pushed up to the surface and it carries with it groundwater. But a spring is also an ecosystem. So its source by this groundwater. But when it gets to the surface, it often creates its own insular ecosystem that you'll find riparian vegetation, sometimes rare plants, you'll find a lot of biodiversity.
Grace Peven: So often they're these biological hotspots on the environment that that supports unique wildlife and plants on the landscape.
Jack Kredell: Is it We can see surface watersheds right? Mountain mountains for the most part are carved by water. Is it does it become harder to to understand and to quantify a subsurface body of water like we absolutely screwed that up. I'm also getting nailed by something and I got stung.
Grace Peven: really? is it in your shirt?
Jack Kredell: No, it's just like it just happened because I was talking. I was like, I m let's see. I just don't know enough about hydrology when I see. I really just want you to talk about how streams are these fucked up, mysterious entities.
Grace Peven: Springs are. Yeah.
Jack Kredell: Why? You know, why is it difficult to understand this? The subsurface life of of water.
Grace Peven: It's hard to study something that you can't see. There's lots of ways that we can measure the surface of the earth because we can use all of our senses and tools to measure the surface. But when it comes to groundwater and the subsurface subsurface environment, there are certainly tools and technology that exist to study it. It's it's just harder and you have to use proxies a lot of the time to to really get to the core of what you want to understand.
Grace Peven: So and oftentimes the groundwater flow paths and aquifers are not not really well understood. Like we know we know where aquifers exist a lot of the time, but we don't necessarily have them mapped to their full extend or understand how they're recharged. Exactly. What's interesting about groundwater is that, well, when we think about a watershed, it's basically land that drains any water that falls onto it, it drains it to a central point and groundwater is really different because it can be recharged outside of the drainage boundary, outside of a watershed.
Grace Peven: So this spring here, it's in Pioneer Watershed, but it could be it could be recharged by by the watershed over because the geology could be be that the flow paths are going underneath the mountain and bringing water here. Or it could be that, you know, these different geologic flow paths are coalescing at this one spot, but they're bringing water from from multiple points, multiple drainages.
Grace Peven: And that's I think that's confusing to wrap our heads around because we're used to we can see snow on top of mountain and we can over time, watch it melt and we can see our streams get bigger and bigger. And so there's there's an obvious connection there. But with springs, they're not always fluctuating. So some of these springs are really stable because they're there.
Grace Peven: The water that we're seeing surface today could be 50 years old, could be 100 years old. And what I mean when I say 50 to 100 years old, it's that the precipitation, the snowmelt or the rainfall that we get, it could take it could take 100 years to work its way through the geologic flow paths to surface as a spring.
Grace Peven: I'm not sure if I answered your question, but basically there's a lot that we don't know.
Jack Kredell: Know there's a lot of mystery to the groundwater.
Jack Kredell: Do you think you're attracted to that mystery?
Grace Peven: Yeah. Yeah, I think I think it's exciting that there there's a lot to still understand about springs and part of it is that they're often really rugged, remote locations that are hard to access. And that's a big reason that springs out here have not been studied because they're just incredibly hard to get to. And then when you get to a spring, they're not confined in like a neat little channel that you can study.
Grace Peven: They're often like seeping out from multiple locations. And it can be it can be confusing any second to think about that. Yeah, like this kind of work as in like in general, environmental science or natural resources or hydrology.
Jack Kredell: This is very demanding field work and I'm wondering what advice you would give to, students wanting to pursue similar kinds of work.
Jack Kredell: Remote. Rugged. Difficult.
Grace Peven: I think going in with the expectation that it won't be a walk in the park is as important. There's going to be pokey plants, and you're probably going to fall down on the trail and, and and that's okay. but I think it's things that are really challenging, both physically and intellectually or are often the most rewarding. and so I think about that when I'm doing this work.
Grace Peven: I think that it's challenging to get here, but, but the rewards are high because there's a reason these places haven't been studied very much, because it's really hard. And I think we've we've discovered so much in, in science. And I think often we feel that like there's nothing left to to learn or discover. And I definitely felt that way when I was younger.
Grace Peven: But the more and more I learn about these places, the more that I find we don't understand and what's left to. There's a lot left to to understand and study about these places. And I think it takes creativity and curiosity and patience to again be be out in these places physically and to observe and take your time. Like an interesting research question, Is it just going to, like, pop into your head?
Grace Peven: It takes patience and time to be in these places and and just listen to them. When I started this research, I, you know, to come to my current research, I did a lot of reading from other scientists that have studied springs in hydrology. And I thought I knew, okay, here's the question I want to do. And then I when I got out here, I had to shift around my question for what was what I was observing here and what was possible to do also.
Grace Peven: and I think that's really important to just be open minded and curious and be open to being surprised by what you find out here.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, it sounds like your, your research question evolved out of a kind of immersion in the physical environment, just coming up with it ready made after reading a bunch of articles.
Grace Peven: Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's part of the scientific method and process is that it starts with an observation and then it leads to a hypothesis or a question. and I think that's, that's really true. I think it has to start with some, some observation. And I think in this type of work in water resources, in natural resources, that has to start with just hiking around and getting out into the environment and looking at something and being like, that's kind of weird or that's interesting.
Grace Peven: I wonder why that hill looks like that or when or why those trees are there, or why are these springs showing up in this one spot and just asking also really basic questions like that, that and that'll lead you, I think, down, down a rabbit hole of other questions. So starting with like and I think it can be overwhelming to like you look around here and you think like this landscape is so vast and there's so much to cover and so much to, to be curious about.
Grace Peven: But just starting starting with those really basic questions and being like, I wonder, you know, I wonder why the groundwater is coming up here. I wonder why. Why this is the way it is. And starting there will well lead you will lead you to an interesting place.
Jack Kredell: Or maybe just I feel like hiking over there.
Grace Peven: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Not always having a specific goal or direction to can, can feel nice and just meandering around the woods.
Jack Kredell: batteries going to die.
Grace Peven: Okay.
Jack Kredell: Have you, have you had any memorable encounters with wildlife while working with springs?
Grace Peven: I actually haven't. And I think I purposely try to prevent, you know, running into a bear or spooking up wildlife. So, you know, I when I approach a spring, I'm I'm very intentional about it and very cautious to not, you know, spook a bear for my own safety, but also not to stress out the bear because it's probably enjoying a really nice, cool, shady spot at a spring.
Grace Peven: And, you know, I'm just coming up and ruining its day. So so I try to be intentional about, you know, when I'm walking up and making noise and just approaching it quietly and not stomping into the spring.
Jack Kredell: Like me, I always burst out laughing, knowing that like the first thing I did was just like, get to the middle of the spring, suck up all the water.
Grace Peven: So yeah, it's it's life giving. You need it every spring.
Jack Kredell: Mother.
Grace Peven: Yes. Blessings don't include the grass.
Jack Kredell: Do you know where your love of water began?
Grace Peven: yeah. My parents were rafting guides, in their younger days, and they kind of kept that tradition when I was growing up of going rafting every summer. So I started rafting from a young age with my family on the Salmon River and rivers in Washington and Oregon. and I just, I just loved it. I loved being on the water and the perspective that you get of the landscape when you're floating on a river and like letting the river take you where it wants to take you and kind of working with it.
Grace Peven: I loved that aspect of rafting. And we'd also, when we'd get to camp, there would usually be a tributary coming in at the campsite and I would love to just hike up the tributary right in the middle of the creek for hours, just to see, just to see where it went. And it just felt like a different world in there in the water and yeah, I've just always, just always wanted to be around water and studying it and playing in it.
Grace Peven: yeah.
Jack Kredell: I'm looking for the source. Can you talk about this watershed.
Grace Peven: About Pioneer? Yeah. yeah, just in general. Like.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, where it is, like, you could talk about, like, you could, you could describe the, like, the dendrite pioneer to big creek, to the middle fork, to the salmon, to the Columbia.
Grace Peven: Yeah, Yeah. so pioneer, which is the watershed right behind Taylor Ranch, is a small it's a really small catchment. It's about six square miles, and it dreams. The highest point that it drains from is Dave Lewis Peak at about 9200 feet. so it's a really steep drainage because Taylor where the base of Pioneer where it comes into Big Creek is about 3800 feet.
Grace Peven: So it's draining, it's draining a lot of elevation from, from the top to the bottom. and it's really steep and rugged, rocky. The diamond fire in 2000 burned pretty hot in this watershed. So you can see down logs everywhere you go. And there's little timber patches and forest patches left. But mostly it's, it burned pretty at pretty high severity.
Grace Peven: but, but it's interesting because there's so many downed trees and standing dead trees that you think about how shady and forested this watershed used to be. And now it's hot and dry and exposed and kind of unforgiving in that way. and I think a lot about when I'm up here that I'll probably, I'll never see what this watershed used to look like just over 20 years ago before the fire.
Grace Peven: It was a completely different place. And, and in one fire, it's it changed its character completely. but for also for that reason, these springs are easier to find in that way because they're more part of this more exposed matrix now. Think they would have been they would have been tough to spot with with thick forests and dense forests.
Grace Peven: How it used to be in pioneer, but yeah, pioneer flows into big creek and and it we're about Taylor is about seven miles six or seven miles up from the confluence of of the Middle Fork. so big creek then flows into the middle fork of the Salmon River and goes through it kind of marks the entrance to the impassable canyon on the middle fork where the trail stops and really sheer cliffs come up.
Grace Peven: It's one of the deepest canyons in North America. and then the Middle Fork flows into the main salmon river, and then eventually the Lower Salmon River and the Snake River and into the Columbia and then into the ocean. So we're just in this tiny part of this huge basin, huge watershed. but it's all connected. It's where the springs are, where our water begins.
Grace Peven: For so much of Idaho and Washington State and the whole Columbia River Basin.
Jack Kredell: Do you think the changed environmental conditions post-fire have affected the the flow of springs?
Grace Peven: That's a good question. I know that there's been research done on how fires affected, creeks and streams, but not necessarily, not necessarily springs that I know of. but it's definitely fire From what I've observed, fire usually burns hotter around springs because there's more vegetation growth around springs, but then it recovers more quickly because it has that consistent source of of water.
Grace Peven: So vegetation recovers more quickly. It's more resilient to fire because of that water source and higher water content in the vegetation to. But it's you know, fire can sometimes change the plant community within within watershed. so it's possible that maybe we're seeing different vegetation structure and dynamics Post-Fire but yeah, that's, that's hard to say. I don't, I don't know exactly how much these springs have changed.
Grace Peven: I know I've noticed in some of, some of the springs at lower elevation that I've been studying, I've noticed that within the spring footprint there, standing dead conifers. And that's really interesting to me because they're doug firs and that's not where you typically that's not a hospitable environment for doug firs within a wetted basically a wetland, a spring footprint that's not where you typically see them grow.
Grace Peven: So that makes me think that something after the fire changed the path, the flow path of the springs, or maybe those springs used to be in a different location, like there is some something happening there that, that I don't think that water used to be there because the Doug Firs wouldn't have been able to survive.
Pope
Janet Pope: So I've been coming here to Taylor for several years. I was trying to think tonight how long it's been. It has been since late nineties. And I came here mainly because when I came to Idaho from Detroit and I have a ranch up on the lower salmon, I met a helicopter pilot and he was doing work in here.
Janet Pope: So I got to come in here and I met Jim and Holly Atkenson at the time, got very enthused with the whole idea of Taylor, and at the same time I have a foundation that I run in Michigan. My dad and my grandpa had a machine tool company and wanted to get back to Students for Engineering Education. Grandpa never went past the eighth grade and so we were doing things in engineering.
Janet Pope: But once I came out to Idaho and fell in love with the backcountry, which I did a lot of things with outfitters and that and all that, enjoyed the horses and the packing and got to know the wilderness. I started bringing some of the funds out to share with Idaho, and I was introduced to the University of Idaho through Taylor.
Janet Pope: And it was that those early years that Jim and Holly Akenson were here and we we were trying to think of ideas for involving undergraduate students here and also continue research, hopefully have graduate programs that would expand any world sort of world class research in here, because this is a perfect place to examine what is still pristine wilderness compared to what happens in the cities, you know, and what we've done to civilization back where we all live.
Janet Pope: But anyway, so my first interaction with them was with the professors there at University of Idaho. We we thought of ideas for letting the professors think of a project, a research project, and then find a student. We thought of ideas to have interns come in here in the summer and we've had for two six of them every summer since, and they would work at the ranch and learn things from professors coming in.
Janet Pope: So I saw a lot of ways that the Devlieg Foundation could support these programs because everybody needed a way to financially get in here. And so I became happily a great part of the team. And I didn't work for you. I always felt like I was, but we have had some very successful programs. The The Devlieg cabin came out of the fire in 2000 where they lost a couple bunkhouses, and I just innocently said maybe the Lake Foundation could help a little.
Janet Pope: And and if any of you seen the Devlieg cabin, you'll know we did it a lot and a lot of it was volunteer work and labor love to make something that would be a signature of the backcountry, along with fixing up some of the other cabins. So I care very much about the history of the place. I care very much about wilderness.
Janet Pope: I think if you have to keep educating people to wilderness or or we'll lose it. So we need to educate the young and and the old and and keep the the history alive. And here I've been very thrilled to be a part of every process. And project. And here I also have involved research with other universities to come in here and do their studies.
Janet Pope: So during some of our ideas get togethers with the ranch here, I we decided to create what we call a Devlieg undergraduate research scholar. And that idea was to bring undergrads into experiencing a research project. It didn't have to be a two year graduate program or anything. It could be just a summer program. There's so much research has been done in here and luckily it's becoming cataloged.
Janet Pope: So you can say what was done on woodpeckers. And you know, you can gather that information and carry on from there. But these students, it was a very successful program in that they felt like they had a real project and it was only like ten weeks in the summer. These some of the students have gone on to publish and stay in that subject matter.
Janet Pope: But every time we have the interns in here and these young students, we we have them give a report at the end of the summer. And I am just always thrilled with their comments and their successes and the whole idea that they came in here and basically a lot of them, it's changed their life. They've said, my God, they had no idea what it would be like to separate themselves from town, from whatever their everyday things are, and their their friends and family and everything, and experience the wilderness and experience taking care of themselves.
Janet Pope: And it's always brought tears to my eyes to have them make those statements because that's what it's all about. People that come in here, it changes people. It's slow, it's quiet. Sure, we have now we have Internet and ways to continue to connect with research. And that's what it's really for. So we're able to keep in contact and a lot of people hike all the way in here, which is 35 miles from the trailhead, and a lot of the kids fly in.
Janet Pope: But I'm able to, with my foundation, able to support the funding so that they can do that. And a couple of years ago, we decided to bring professors in every summer for these interns that would teach at maybe a two or three day course and they'd learn more about the area. So it's been a pretty successful program.
Jack Kredell: That was great. So can you maybe reflect on what you think the value of a wilderness education is? You know, what does what what does Taylor provide that that other spaces really can't?
Janet Pope: That's really hard, isn't it?
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Janet Pope: What do you think?
Jack Kredell: Well, you mentioned the the quiet, which struck me. It's just it's struck me ever since I arrived here that the so-called Taylor time, the fact that, you know, you're removed from the stuff that is vexing you and causing anxiety and you get to. Yeah, you know that in a way. Yeah. Observe things for one.
Janet Pope: I.
Jack Kredell: Don't know.
Janet Pope: The set of experiences I think people have at Taylor are all very personal, but I think it's one theme in that you come in and it's quiet, it's basic. You have to have what you need, you have to brought it in. It's quiet, I think. I mean, it's a place where people can think and can think about what they're doing on the what we want to call, I guess, the outside world and sometimes it's hard to come back to after being a Taylor.
Janet Pope: It's not an earth shattering experience, but it's a peaceful time to be in here and and have one little project maybe for the undergrads. We have graduate students that have specific projects and they come in here and hike all over the place. They're gone all day of rivers and creeks and up the trail, and they're they're in love with them.
Janet Pope: And I and I understand I love the the out-of-doors and the wilderness and the fact that I got here a couple of days ago and looked over the the deck at the lake and there was a a a bear and a and a cub walk another right by the tent. That's pretty cool. So you do see a lot of wildlife.
Janet Pope: I think what it does is makes you realize that you could slow down back at home. I think maybe something could be said about why I give and.
Jack Kredell: Why do you.
Janet Pope: Give? Yeah, Really? Well, you know, with development people that I've been involved with the university. Why? Why do you give? I've been more excited about giving to University of Idaho and Taylor Ranch than anything my foundation does. I know I should be helping carry on my my dad and my grandpa legacy in the machine tool business. But gosh, you know, the backcountry is a lot more intriguing, but it's a passion.
Janet Pope: They talk about that and developing. It's a passion that you have something in your life and I have that passion here for Taylor. I have been doing a lot of it, like half of maybe our funding comes to the university at home. Taylor And just to encourage research, encourage use of the place, encourage people to have these experiences.
Janet Pope: And I you know, like I don't work for the university, but sometimes I think they think I do. Yes. I'm I'm always telling them ideas and hoping to make their ideas happen. And I we've probably have just a few more years with the foundation. I'm I'm pushing pushing some age here and I think of Taylor as the legacy for my foundation and my heart's really in it.
Janet Pope: So that's pretty cool. So on top of everything else, I love my muse. Also, two years ago I wrote my bills in here that made all the difference in the world too. So yeah.
Jack Kredell: Got it. Very. Janet, you're extremely generous with your support for Taylor. Yeah, And it feels like you. It's because you want other people, specifically younger people, to. To have that same experience and passion as Yeah. To be able to experience that for themselves.
Janet Pope: So can I say then that.
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I mean it to me that seems what you're doing is.
Janet Pope: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: It's that you want other people to have.
Janet Pope: Yeah, yeah.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Okay.
Janet Pope: Yeah. So also the passion that I feel for Taylor is the thrill of sharing it with others. And it's not a big crowd and a Taylor. I mean, the university always has trouble making ends meet in here and going through budget and that kind of thing. So I try to help with that. But it's an individual experience in here that it really happens and it slows you down and makes you look at wildlife and the ecology in here and makes you think about the world.
Janet Pope: I didn't set out to do all that. It just sort of happened with this. With the way I feel about Idaho and the way I feel about the backcountry and I just love sharing it with other people and I've been able to help make that happen financially. So I'm very pleased.
Jack Kredell: Are there any specific or can you reflect on any any memories or specific times that you've had at Taylor that you really cherish? You know, is there anything that stands out from all of your visits?
Janet Pope: Well, I could talk about the cabin a little bit because that was huge.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Janet Pope: Yeah. So when it came time that they needed more room for students to stay and everything, we we had this idea, all of us, the university, I think to build a cabin. And so I got involved with the foundation did and my husband at the time still flying helicopters. We were able to steer head the whole project basically, and you know, as all volunteer and with my heart that we did all we did.
Janet Pope: And Jim Pope is is a hard worker, too. And so we organized the whole helicopter lift off the main salmon, and we had 32 loads come in here with this all the logs. And then we sat here and watched and put it all back together. And then, then I hired three carpenters that are very good with logs, cabins, because they worked on my cabin on the Lord Salmon, and they came in and put the roof on, put it all together, did all the inside.
Janet Pope: And then I stayed and stayed and with Holly and spent our first night in the cabin, it was it was quite, quite the event. And I think the backcountry has a lot of that volunteerism because the backcountry all supports itself. People back here want to help the other guy like you don't drive away from a guy that's stuck in a ditch, you know, in the middle of nowhere.
Janet Pope: And that's the way I see people in the backcountry. And I hope and I think that's the way the student feel when they come in here, because they'll be one project going on and another. Stu, can I go with you today? And then all this you know, transfer of of knowledge goes on. So I think one of our biggest projects, of course, was the Cabin, and I practically lived in here at that time.
Janet Pope: So and we had the students helping to the interns that summer. So that was a big experience. But I think I think programs happening in here that I've helped maybe give some dollars to that happen, you know, semester in a while was something we all kind of got on the ground floor of. Now it's self-sufficient, so that's cool.
Janet Pope: I always thought that the projects that we would the Devlieg Foundation would pay for, I just do it for a couple of years and then somebody jump in. But we haven't had that guy jump in yet. So we're still looking for, you know, substantial funding and I decided one day with the foundation that they needed money here to support the everyday things that are happening here with the cost of the maintenance sky and flying in and materials.
Janet Pope: So my foundation gave us substantial start in a substantial endowment. And then the other lady that has supported Taylor way before me was Claire Blake, and she lives in Minnesota and she's much older now and can't come out, but she ended up giving the same amount. So we we have an endowment now that's and it's not in our names or anything.
Janet Pope: It's called the Taylor Operational Endowment and anybody can give to her. So I think that's helped keep the place together because there have been a lot of threats of having to close it down because of budgets with the University of Idaho. And and that that would just break my heart. So if I work harder at trying to make make things happen here.
Jack Kredell: That's good. Is that a good that's great.
Janet Pope: You can put these in some sort of order.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Janet Pope: So things that have happened or.
Jack Kredell: Yeah.
Janet Pope: Following the the students. Okay. So I think the other thing and it hasn't been that way in the last few years because I've been involved with my own life and stuff, but I still support projects and, and, but at the beginning when the students come in here and do the undergrad, I mean, I would follow them on the trail.
Janet Pope: I would I would find out what they're doing. And I always had them report to me and, and actually had some of them come to our meetings wherever they were, because we used to have our foundation meetings in some really fun places like Estes Park and things. So anyway, I always think that the students were thrilled that somebody was interested.
Janet Pope: I've always tried to come in and be interested in the project, whatever they are, and I'm sure it just makes them feel great that somebody is following their their career, whether it's something they finish back at U of I or it's just a summer project. I have followed all the students for years. It's very fun for me to be personal with them.
Jack Kredell: Can you talk about this? This is maybe a tough one, but, can you talk about your your vision for Taylor?
Janet Pope: boy. Goes on forever.
Jack Kredell: What do you want for Taylor's future, or what would you like to see?
Janet Pope: Well, my vision for Taylor and it's been this for several years, the Jim and Holley Ackenson, as they were biologists in their own right. So they had a lot of great ideas for the for the ranch. And there were three things that we worked on. And I think we need to continue to work on is research here which involved people and what better way to get people involved in the wilderness than to have a project.
Janet Pope: There's so there's the undergraduate programs that help enlighten young people to what could be done in here, brings a professor in that a lot of times it starts with the professor and then they find the student. So to educate the undergrads to what's going on here. But there's also serious research that has been done in the past with Maurice Hornocker, her and the Cougar studies that are world renowned studies and I really think it's important to get those kind of have those studies continue to happen in here.
Janet Pope: We have a chance to have world class education or research in here, and we I think we need to work. That would be a vision that I would have to continue to have graduate work in here versus always a struggle with the Forest Service to be on the edge of wilderness and be able to touch and work on their land.
Janet Pope: You know, a lot of times and you have to work with fish and game on them. So I understand all that. But there's the third element is the ongoing continuing research of a project. Like we have had a vegetation study in here from a professor at U of I that's gone on for 25 years and those are very important in the research field.
Janet Pope: And I learned a lot of this from just being involved with what could be done in here. And I see some of that slacking a little and I see a lot of chances here for really serious education, research, education in here. So that would be my vision to make this a world class research place and at the same time involve people to have these experiences, whether they're big, smaller, little.
Jack Kredell: But no good.
Janet Pope: Yeah.
Jack Kredell: That was my first segment.
Janet Pope: That's what we that's what and I used to do the website form here, you know, that's what were our three, that was our three things of it we wanted those is our circle of things for undergrads with ongoing research.
Jack Kredell: Yeah. Janet I mean, sometimes you paint yourself as just like Justin supporter or donor, which you're not. I mean, you.
Janet Pope: Know, I'm hands on here.
Jack Kredell: I know you've, you've got your hands dirty. I know. Do you have any stories about just like working here with Jim and Holly or just, just doing stuff? Anything come to mind? I mean, you've, you know, poured your heart and soul into this, but yeah.
Janet Pope: Well, some of the experiences that I've had here are wonderful as far as wildlife is concerned. And I really came here with my husband at the time who was doing the game surveys for Idaho, a fishing game. That's how I came here in the first place. So I hung out with a lot of biologists and I actually drove the fuel truck, which didn't involve Taylor Ranch, but I got to come in here and hang out while he was fine and that kind of thing.
Janet Pope: So I got quite involved with Wildlife and Elk surveys, bighorn sheep wolf. I would hang out here and they they can since had a mule that died and they used it for a game camera and to capture a wolf because they were certified with the Colorado. So here I am holding a wolf head, you know, and just happened to be coming by.
Janet Pope: And I get to experience it's like that, you know, and Holly was always great to take me up on the Hill and set me on a rock. And and we had a study in here once with rattlesnakes. And in the winter you had to sort of monitor there if they're still alive and they have put tags on them.
Janet Pope: And I learned all about that. And we were sitting there once and counting how many, you know, clicks that I guess, you know, I learned just enough to be dangerous on all these studies. I don't necessarily know what I'm doing, but we were monitoring them and counting them. And I said, Well, now are we going to go find the snakes?
Janet Pope: And she said, Well, you're sitting on their den right now. So, you know, I had a lot of they just throw me in to things and I was always game to because I just love I love being out out in the woods. And I, I love wildlife and I just want others to learn about it. So I've had a lot of opportunities here for just being here.
Janet Pope: And I'm very privileged. I think. And I don't think there's any other donor -- If you want to call me a donor, that would have bother with those kind of experiences or be friends with them enough to hang out and want to hear what everybody's doing. And that's I guess that's what I did. And it's been a love that really has itself.
Jack Kredell: Growing up in in suburban Michigan, what brought you out here to Idaho?
Janet Pope: Yeah. Okay. So when I I'm actually from Detroit, I always tell people that to scare them. You know, Detroit's quite a it's not really it was a nice suburb. And my parents, of course, had that business there in town. But my dad always was she was a forest ranger and he had to run this machine tool company because he was responsible.
Janet Pope: And that was a big company. And I eventually ended up working for the company for 15 years. I was there, became their advertising manager, so I was in graphic arts. We had a cabin up in northern Michigan, halfway up, up the thumb, they say, and we just loved it. It was a log cabin and we planted trees and that was where my family's heart was, was in the woods.
Janet Pope: And I always loved to camp. I floated every river in Michigan, had a couple bottle of wine when I did it and just love being out-of-doors and camping and so when I had a chance to buy some property in Idaho, my girlfriend moved out here and I came flying out that night with my first husband at the time and we just bought it overnight.
Janet Pope: It's 1300 acres on the on the lower salmon up 5000 feet. And you've got the river down below. I'm I'm in heaven. I mean, I have the best of every world on I, I love the ranch, although I live in town so I just can't get there in the winter. So but I guess it came from my family really.
Janet Pope: Even though we were industrial people and building machines, my heart again, was always in the woods. I've always enjoyed it. So I don't know if that helps you.
Jack Kredell: I'm just trying to understand it.
Janet Pope: You're making me dizzy. It's probably the wine is.
Jack Kredell: Do you think of Taylor as your as your legacy?
Janet Pope: yeah, that I say that. Yeah. I thought I tried to.
Jack Kredell: You did, but I mean, yeah, it just seems like, in a way, the most important thing in your life. Yeah. Yeah.
Janet Pope: So I have brought in my foundation board out here. We've had our meetings here. gosh. I had five airplanes on the strip. You know, try not to bruise the wilderness. They love this place. And they were actually came out for the christening of the new Tivoli cabin or whatever. They love everything we do at Taylors. So I have all that support with my foundation board.
Janet Pope: And I think that the majority of them all know that what I feel is a legacy for my Devlieg money that I've been able to disperse all this years, even though I try to keep my my grandpa's legacy alive because he is in the Hall of Fame of machine tool manufacturers never went past the eighth grade, so we wanted to give back to education.
Janet Pope: So that theme always ran with me too. But I always have felt that my heart's here at Taylor and that this is a legacy I want my foundation to live with and live on with. So and I know it will. With all that we've been able to financially support emotionally the support here, how could it not? You know, and you have always been respectful for that to me and I'm just very happy to volunteer and be part of it all.
Jack Kredell: Are there any are there any things you want to say, you know, from the heart or just I think I go over just anything you want to say at all. Otherwise we can we can wrap it.
Janet Pope: Yeah, I think that I think that last one was pretty good cheer.
Jack Kredell: I got.
Janet Pope: That. Cheers. Cheers. You cry. Well, I mean it.
Jack Kredell: I know.
Janet Pope: I know. I basically mean, it's crazy. I mean, I don't know how these people sometimes they don't know what to do with me. You know, you're right. As I was always saying, What? We're going to do this don't want to do this, you know, So and they always take good care of me and they're always very respectful of me.
Janet Pope: And they know I want to be part of things. And there's long like when I don't know what's going on with Taylor. And then I get real worried because we always need a good maintenance person here and we always need somebody to watch it all winter long. And it's hard to find those people. And there's always been budget cuts and I've always freaked out and panicked and you know, what can we do?
Janet Pope: So that's why we started that endowment.
Jack Kredell: So I think Andrew is pretty good.
Janet Pope: What is.
Jack Kredell: It? Are you happy with Andrew?
Janet Pope: God, yeah, me too. God, Yeah. What I think we need right now, I have. Look what I think would be good for Taylor right now. And I've always been on the planning committee itself of I have some good ideas and they had a really good coordinator last year. And that's what I think we need right now. We need a, educator, a professor, professor type coordinator that can organize the research in here, whether it's an undergrad or graduate, bring in the government agencies and organize it.
Janet Pope: So there's always a project going on in here. And what the good part about that is that when you bring the undergrads in, they can always be part of that project and they can use them to go. Like I said before, I'll go up the stream with them and learn from those projects. And I think we're at a stage where we need to get a little more organized again, and I'm always the first one to to build the flowchart.
Janet Pope: Let's do it. You know, you can't. I'm always been encouraged with what they do on here. That was Teresa last year. You didn't know her.
Jack Kredell: I'm not. Theresa's on that.
Janet Pope: we did that before. We talked about that before.
Jack Kredell: I love Theresa.
Janet Pope: Do you know what I'm trying to say?
Jack Kredell: Yeah, I do.
Janet Pope: Yeah. Just. I don't know what their plans are and all.
Jack Kredell: I know it's always been big to me.
Janet Pope: You know? But I literally last two years ago, when Theresa, we we literally did have a flowchart. I was and I gave money for I was the grad student from to come to them to come and they would filter out projects and made sense to me. But then Theresa ended up leaving so.