Grace Peven Item Info
Topics:
Jack Kredell:So imagine an audience member who doesn't know you obviously doesn't know your research or anything about this kind of research. But I think if we take that approach, it'll be pretty good. So to start out, just introduce yourself and then maybe how you how you learned about Taylor or how you became associated with Taylor. So, like Grace Piven, and then you're studying for your passion, hydrology or whatever.
And then tell us how you how you got to Taylor.
Grace Peven:Yeah. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. My name is Grace Peven, and I'm a Ph.D. student in the Water Resources Program at University of Idaho in Moscow. I first learned about Taylor when I was looking for graduate programs, and I came across some water research being done by my advisor, Dr. Mary Engles, out at Taylor. And I was immediately interested because I had heard about Taylor before and that it was right in the middle of the Frank Church wilderness, and I thought that would be a really interesting place to do research because it's a natural laboratory and we can learn a lot about natural system ecosystems and watersheds out here.
So based on like what I wanted to do with my career, I felt that it would be a really good match for me. So I contacted my advisor and she was studying springs out here and just started inventorying and monitoring springs and getting them on the map since a lot of them have not been mapped out here at all.
So that was part of our part of the project that I was joining in on.
Jack Kredell:And then now can you excuse me?
So, so what is your project? You know, if you could describe it.
Grace Peven:Yeah. Basically, my research is detecting and understanding change, environmental change around spring ecosystems. And so, especially under the context of climate change and changing water conditions, we're seeing snowmelt happen earlier and earlier each year with a lot of differences in timing and in quantity on the landscape and the watershed and watersheds around Taylor are all snowmelt dependent and and they feed downstream water sources throughout the whole Columbia Salmon River and Columbia Basin.
Jack Kredell:Wait in the.
Grace Peven:Project.
Jack Kredell:Yeah. Tell us about your research project.
Grace Peven:Cool. So basically my research is detecting and understanding change. And under the context of climate change in Headwaters Spring, ecosystems around Taylor Ranch. So basically the motivation for this project comes from observing climate change, especially in the western U.S. We're seeing earlier snowmelt, timing and changes in quantity of snow throughout the winter and also how quickly it melts off in the springtime.
So we're our water resources are changing and they're changing fairly rapidly. And a lot of our water that we that we rely on downstream comes starts at these springs up in the headwaters in the mountains. So they're really important water resources to study. And they've been pretty understudied in this part of the country and they're really important here too, especially being in kind of a semi-arid climate.
They're often like the only water resources for four miles for wildlife and and plants. So they they provide a pretty important ecosystem. So they're important to monitor and study and a lot of these springs out here have never been mapped. There's been a few researchers in the past that have started mapping these springs, but they haven't really been studied long term.
And over time. So what I'm doing is measuring discharge and flow at these springs to understand how they're changing in the in the dry season, in the summer season. So from May to October, I'll come out here and measure discharge and soil moisture and water quality measurements as an indicator of change. And to understand how how the springs are reacting to changes in snowmelt, timing and precipitation.
So so after I collect my my field measurements, I'll use remote sensing to correlate the satellite imagery with the field measurements I've been taking this summer and using the satellite imagery. It's a really powerful tool to look back in time, to understand, to start building a dataset over time. That tells us how these springs have been changing.
Jack Kredell:I like to include some awkward silence at the end in order to as a buffer for cutting.
Grace Peven:Okay. Yeah.
Jack Kredell:Sort of cool you out.
Grace Peven:Yeah. Let me know if you want me to, like, explain any aspect more or if that made sense.
Jack Kredell:Can you talk about the process of locating springs? I know that you rely on some remote sensing data cuts. That's not the entire picture, right?
Grace Peven:Yeah. Some of these springs were previously mapped by a couple previous grad students, but there's a lot of springs that are still unmapped on the landscape. And I found that the more time I spend out here, the more intuitive the location of springs are. So. And it changes throughout, throughout the year. I found that in April and May the springs were fairly obvious on the landscape because they stuck out their coloration of the riparian vegetation around the spring footprint was pretty unique.
So as I'm spending a lot of time out here and hiking around, it's it's more obvious where the springs are based, based on that vegetation. And they really look like islands, terrestrial islands on the landscape a lot of the time. Sometimes they'll start at at the headwaters of a stream and then continue down and you can see that classic riparian corridor.
But other times, they they kind of look like terrestrial islands on the landscape. They'll be this kind of random patch of green that sticks out, especially in this landscape where we've experienced so many fires. And it's it's pretty burnt up and exposed. The springs stick out like a sore thumb. And in this watershed in particular.
Jack Kredell:Do you ever feel excitement when you're spring hunting?
Grace Peven:Yeah. Yeah, it's really exciting. Most likely. I'm not the first person that's ever been to these some of these springs, but it can feel that way, especially out hiking by myself over the time. And if I spot a spring from a distance and then make it my mission to get up to that spring and sometimes it isn't a spring and, and that's okay.
And sometimes it is a spring. And that's really exciting to get it on the map and measure the water and look at the vegetation and kind of get to know this new little island ecosystem. It's definitely exciting.
Jack Kredell:Why are you drawn specifically to the area around Taylor Ranch? Having gone on one of these hikes with you, it's pretty arduous. There's a lot of elevation and it's it's not easy fieldwork. What what motivates you to get out of bed and do these these hikes in order to collect your your data?
Grace Peven:You. I think I'm drawn to this landscape because of how rugged and inaccessible it feels. I think in these these places that are not easy for humans to to navigate and hike around, I think you can find some of the most wild pockets, whether that be like a cool old growth stand or wildlife or a game trail or a shed on the trail.
I think you can find you can find a lot and that kind of removes you from from everyday conveniences. And you know what we've grown used to in our, like built, very built environment. So it feels like kind of a antithesis to that. And I think I think that that draws me to this landscape. And I mean, it's just it's very it's very rugged and kind of unkempt and fire and other disturbances are allowed to just run their course and do what they're supposed to do.
And it's really special to have have these places conserved and protected still. And we can learn and we can learn a lot about about ecology and ecosystems and water, water in these places that are just left to do what they're supposed to do.
So for us, it's my favorite time. Yeah, you're right in the sun. I feel like maybe it's important to mention that they're not unaffected by our activities, though.
Jack Kredell:Yeah, you should see how we frame that.
Grace Peven:I think tagged on to what I just said. But, yeah, I don't know how you would like, mesh that in. Just tagged on to what I just said about, like, this being a natural conserved area and it's still affected by human activities because all of our water, the water cycle in particular is. Are you recording oxer the water The water cycle?
The water cycle in particular is you connects everything. So just because this this landscape is removed from cities and towns and our built infrastructure and environment, it doesn't mean that it's not affected by what we do. It can feel like when you're in the middle of the mountains here that, you know, this is an untouched landscape and it hasn't been been touched by modern day industry and and pollution that we see in other places.
But there's, you know, global regional cycles and processes that connect everywhere, especially the water cycle, the, you know, what we emit into the atmosphere. It gets carried through our clouds and our water and then gets deposited in other places in like really wild places like, like the Frank Church around Taylor. So that's part of studying, studying springs, that's part of studying springs is that they, they are they're affected by the water is sourced from snowmelt or precipitation.
At some point it's probably not sourced from the previous year. It takes a long time for that precipitation and snowmelt to reach this spring. On its surface, but it carries with it whatever at that time was present in the atmosphere. And and and so we do see we do see those impacts even in a place like this.
Jack Kredell:Are you ever concerned about your own personal impact on these very tiny little ecosystems?
Grace Peven:Yeah, yeah, I definitely think about that. I, I like to have the mindset that I'm a visitor in these places. Sometimes I do feel bad when I visit springs and I spook up a deer or I can see a lot, lots of bear scat and animal sign. I feel like I'm walking into someone's home without being invited. And I think that's that's unfortunate what science can be sometimes to like, better understand something.
You do have to have some kind of impact, but you can minimize the impact as much as possible. So when I get to a spring, I try not to step right in the water. I try not to crush plants. I try to be very mindful of where I'm stepping. But the measurements I'm taking are really are really low impact capturing water, measuring discharge, and then releasing that water flowing back downstream.
So I don't feel like I'm taking a lot from the environment. I like to think that I am a respecting it more by trying to understand it better and like trying to give it a voice.
Jack Kredell:Like a deer. Though you also come to the spring for water. Can you can you talk about that, that commonality between you and and the wild animals that use the springs? In particular, the game trails, which are so important to your work, in a way.
Grace Peven:Yeah. I feel like I rely on the mule deer out here a lot for the trails that they make. And nine times out of ten, there's a really nice game trail leading to a spring, which also tells you how important these these places are in the landscape. They act as a refuge for wildlife in really dry times of the year.
But yeah, I think I think we can't separate humans from the natural world like we humans have always been here since time immemorial. And have used these springs and maybe they're not used to their to the same extent that they used to be used. But I'm out hiking around here and I need to get to this spring to refill my refill my water bottle.
So I also rely on them to do this work and and to feed myself.
Jack Kredell:You've had a number of pitches now to right. Can you can you talk about what what has stayed with you when you're you're away from Taylor. Like what what have you learned or encountered here but that stays with you when you when you get back home.
Grace Peven:That's a good question. What has stayed with me?
Jack Kredell:I'll put it another way, Taylor. Taylor is a place of comings and goings, with the exception of the caretaker researcher conduct research. And then they leave and come back. And maybe they leave permanently. And I'm wondering what what sticks with people or you in particular, once you've you've left the place?
Grace Peven:Well, I think obviously, the contrast between how wild this place is versus, you know, going back to to Moscow or a city or town, the extent of of this area and how how larger than area is is conserved and protected. Here is is kind of unfathomable when you are just driving, driving on a road, driving on a highway, going hopping from town to town.
And you're constantly surrounded by built the built environment. And I think it's really it can be startling to come out here and see that exact opposite phenomenon. I think what for me, because I come back about once a month and that's been really interesting to come back and forth and just see. It gives me a unique perspective for how things change over time, because I think when you live and stay in a place over time, those changes between seasons are really subtle.
But to come back once a month, those changes are really, really apparent and the whole hillside is green. And then the next month, it's it's dried out a lot or it's smoky in July now are coming back to these springs to a lot of the times, you know, I'm measuring quantitative data, but a lot of the time what what strikes me is the kind of qualitative feeling that I get when I come back to these springs and see how they've changed over time.
That is hard, is hard to quantify and put a number to. But, you know, you can just tell like it smells different here. There's different flowers or shrubs flowering right now that weren't here a month ago or it feels like a little hotter at the spring or a little cooler at the spring. So I think that's what's really valuable about coming in and out of Taylor is just is that outside perspective of change?
Jack Kredell:When I was talking to the wildlife biologist Maurice Hornocker, he said that fuel is a very important thing when conducting science because we can often get overly dependent on satellite imagery or other forms of remote sensing. But it's important to have a sense of what it's like in order to understand change, especially subtle environmental change cues.
Can you talk maybe a little bit more about how. How fuel and, one's own kind of personal relationship to the the the research object can actually be scientific.
Grace Peven:Yeah. Yeah. I think remote sensing and other tools are really powerful, powerful tools to study the environment. But I don't think anything replaces being out in the fields and and exploring without necessarily collecting quantitative data, which you can do in the field, but just getting a sense of like how how these ecosystems or environments, forests and whatever you're studying, how how they feel, how they smell, what are the sounds it gives you it, it inspires you to, to study and understand these systems even more.
Being physically in the place because you build you build this connection and relationship with that place, especially when you come back multiple times and start really getting to know these places intimately. I don't think that that, you know, technology can really replace replace. I think it's really important as scientists to be out in the fields and on the ground, seeing with all of your senses what you can, what you can observe from these places.
Jack Kredell:yeah.
Grace Peven:Yeah. No worries.
Jack Kredell:Or maybe I'll just do it like this. But just when you when you when you answer, just talk to the camera.
Grace Peven:am I looking at you too much?
Jack Kredell:No, no, no. That's why that's why I'm always.
Grace Peven:not. gotcha. Not like looking down on the ground. Yeah. Okay.
Jack Kredell:That's. That's why I don't want to do that. And I'm not going to do it.
Grace Peven:I know. It's okay. I can.
Jack Kredell:no, no. It's too awkward. It's too often.
Grace Peven:It's. It's certainly more comfortable, like speaking to a person.
Jack Kredell:let's see if this is a hard question. What is a spring?
Grace Peven:What is a spring? A spring is the surface expression of groundwater. So it's where surface water and groundwater interact and interface. And, you know, that's like the most that's the most simple definition, is that it's a surface expression of groundwater. More technically, it's where the aquifer meets the surface, and that's often controlled by geology that can be through fault lines or contacts, which is where bedrock comes up, meets the surface and and it's often and impermeable rock layer that that's the base of an aquifer.
And through whatever geologic processes make it this way, that impermeable rock layer is pushed up to the surface and it carries with it groundwater. But a spring is also an ecosystem. So its source by this groundwater. But when it gets to the surface, it often creates its own insular ecosystem that you'll find riparian vegetation, sometimes rare plants, you'll find a lot of biodiversity.
So often they're these biological hotspots on the environment that that supports unique wildlife and plants on the landscape.
Jack Kredell:Is it We can see surface watersheds right? Mountain mountains for the most part are carved by water. Is it does it become harder to to understand and to quantify a subsurface body of water like we absolutely screwed that up. I'm also getting nailed by something and I got stung.
Grace Peven:really? is it in your shirt?
Jack Kredell:No, it's just like it just happened because I was talking. I was like, I m let's see. I just don't know enough about hydrology when I see. I really just want you to talk about how streams are these fucked up, mysterious entities.
Grace Peven:Springs are. Yeah.
Jack Kredell:Why? You know, why is it difficult to understand this? The subsurface life of of water.
Grace Peven:It's hard to study something that you can't see. There's lots of ways that we can measure the surface of the earth because we can use all of our senses and tools to measure the surface. But when it comes to groundwater and the subsurface subsurface environment, there are certainly tools and technology that exist to study it. It's it's just harder and you have to use proxies a lot of the time to to really get to the core of what you want to understand.
So and oftentimes the groundwater flow paths and aquifers are not not really well understood. Like we know we know where aquifers exist a lot of the time, but we don't necessarily have them mapped to their full extend or understand how they're recharged. Exactly. What's interesting about groundwater is that, well, when we think about a watershed, it's basically land that drains any water that falls onto it, it drains it to a central point and groundwater is really different because it can be recharged outside of the drainage boundary, outside of a watershed.
So this spring here, it's in Pioneer Watershed, but it could be it could be recharged by by the watershed over because the geology could be be that the flow paths are going underneath the mountain and bringing water here. Or it could be that, you know, these different geologic flow paths are coalescing at this one spot, but they're bringing water from from multiple points, multiple drainages.
And that's I think that's confusing to wrap our heads around because we're used to we can see snow on top of mountain and we can over time, watch it melt and we can see our streams get bigger and bigger. And so there's there's an obvious connection there. But with springs, they're not always fluctuating. So some of these springs are really stable because they're there.
The water that we're seeing surface today could be 50 years old, could be 100 years old. And what I mean when I say 50 to 100 years old, it's that the precipitation, the snowmelt or the rainfall that we get, it could take it could take 100 years to work its way through the geologic flow paths to surface as a spring.
I'm not sure if I answered your question, but basically there's a lot that we don't know.
Jack Kredell:Know there's a lot of mystery to the groundwater.
Do you think you're attracted to that mystery?
Grace Peven:Yeah. Yeah, I think I think it's exciting that there there's a lot to still understand about springs and part of it is that they're often really rugged, remote locations that are hard to access. And that's a big reason that springs out here have not been studied because they're just incredibly hard to get to. And then when you get to a spring, they're not confined in like a neat little channel that you can study.
They're often like seeping out from multiple locations. And it can be it can be confusing any second to think about that. Yeah, like this kind of work as in like in general, environmental science or natural resources or hydrology.
Jack Kredell:This is very demanding field work and I'm wondering what advice you would give to, students wanting to pursue similar kinds of work.
Remote. Rugged. Difficult.
Grace Peven:I think going in with the expectation that it won't be a walk in the park is as important. There's going to be pokey plants, and you're probably going to fall down on the trail and, and and that's okay. but I think it's things that are really challenging, both physically and intellectually or are often the most rewarding. and so I think about that when I'm doing this work.
I think that it's challenging to get here, but, but the rewards are high because there's a reason these places haven't been studied very much, because it's really hard. And I think we've we've discovered so much in, in science. And I think often we feel that like there's nothing left to to learn or discover. And I definitely felt that way when I was younger.
But the more and more I learn about these places, the more that I find we don't understand and what's left to. There's a lot left to to understand and study about these places. And I think it takes creativity and curiosity and patience to again be be out in these places physically and to observe and take your time. Like an interesting research question, Is it just going to, like, pop into your head?
It takes patience and time to be in these places and and just listen to them. When I started this research, I, you know, to come to my current research, I did a lot of reading from other scientists that have studied springs in hydrology. And I thought I knew, okay, here's the question I want to do. And then I when I got out here, I had to shift around my question for what was what I was observing here and what was possible to do also.
and I think that's really important to just be open minded and curious and be open to being surprised by what you find out here.
Jack Kredell:Yeah, it sounds like your, your research question evolved out of a kind of immersion in the physical environment, just coming up with it ready made after reading a bunch of articles.
Grace Peven:Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's part of the scientific method and process is that it starts with an observation and then it leads to a hypothesis or a question. and I think that's, that's really true. I think it has to start with some, some observation. And I think in this type of work in water resources, in natural resources, that has to start with just hiking around and getting out into the environment and looking at something and being like, that's kind of weird or that's interesting.
I wonder why that hill looks like that or when or why those trees are there, or why are these springs showing up in this one spot and just asking also really basic questions like that, that and that'll lead you, I think, down, down a rabbit hole of other questions. So starting with like and I think it can be overwhelming to like you look around here and you think like this landscape is so vast and there's so much to cover and so much to, to be curious about.
But just starting starting with those really basic questions and being like, I wonder, you know, I wonder why the groundwater is coming up here. I wonder why. Why this is the way it is. And starting there will well lead you will lead you to an interesting place.
Jack Kredell:Or maybe just I feel like hiking over there.
Grace Peven:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Not always having a specific goal or direction to can, can feel nice and just meandering around the woods.
Jack Kredell:batteries going to die.
Grace Peven:Okay.
Jack Kredell:Have you, have you had any memorable encounters with wildlife while working with springs?
Grace Peven:I actually haven't. And I think I purposely try to prevent, you know, running into a bear or spooking up wildlife. So, you know, I when I approach a spring, I'm I'm very intentional about it and very cautious to not, you know, spook a bear for my own safety, but also not to stress out the bear because it's probably enjoying a really nice, cool, shady spot at a spring.
And, you know, I'm just coming up and ruining its day. So so I try to be intentional about, you know, when I'm walking up and making noise and just approaching it quietly and not stomping into the spring.
Jack Kredell:Like me, I always burst out laughing, knowing that like the first thing I did was just like, get to the middle of the spring, suck up all the water.
Grace Peven:So yeah, it's it's life giving. You need it every spring.
Jack Kredell:Mother.
Grace Peven:Yes. Blessings don't include the grass.
Jack Kredell:Do you know where your love of water began?
Grace Peven:yeah. My parents were rafting guides, in their younger days, and they kind of kept that tradition when I was growing up of going rafting every summer. So I started rafting from a young age with my family on the Salmon River and rivers in Washington and Oregon. and I just, I just loved it. I loved being on the water and the perspective that you get of the landscape when you're floating on a river and like letting the river take you where it wants to take you and kind of working with it.
I loved that aspect of rafting. And we'd also, when we'd get to camp, there would usually be a tributary coming in at the campsite and I would love to just hike up the tributary right in the middle of the creek for hours, just to see, just to see where it went. And it just felt like a different world in there in the water and yeah, I've just always, just always wanted to be around water and studying it and playing in it.
yeah.
Jack Kredell:I'm looking for the source. Can you talk about this watershed.
Grace Peven:About Pioneer? Yeah. yeah, just in general. Like.
Jack Kredell:Yeah, where it is, like, you could talk about, like, you could, you could describe the, like, the dendrite pioneer to big creek, to the middle fork, to the salmon, to the Columbia.
Grace Peven:Yeah, Yeah. so pioneer, which is the watershed right behind Taylor Ranch, is a small it's a really small catchment. It's about six square miles, and it dreams. The highest point that it drains from is Dave Lewis Peak at about 9200 feet. so it's a really steep drainage because Taylor where the base of Pioneer where it comes into Big Creek is about 3800 feet.
So it's draining, it's draining a lot of elevation from, from the top to the bottom. and it's really steep and rugged, rocky. The diamond fire in 2000 burned pretty hot in this watershed. So you can see down logs everywhere you go. And there's little timber patches and forest patches left. But mostly it's, it burned pretty at pretty high severity.
but, but it's interesting because there's so many downed trees and standing dead trees that you think about how shady and forested this watershed used to be. And now it's hot and dry and exposed and kind of unforgiving in that way. and I think a lot about when I'm up here that I'll probably, I'll never see what this watershed used to look like just over 20 years ago before the fire.
It was a completely different place. And, and in one fire, it's it changed its character completely. but for also for that reason, these springs are easier to find in that way because they're more part of this more exposed matrix now. Think they would have been they would have been tough to spot with with thick forests and dense forests.
How it used to be in pioneer, but yeah, pioneer flows into big creek and and it we're about Taylor is about seven miles six or seven miles up from the confluence of of the Middle Fork. so big creek then flows into the middle fork of the Salmon River and goes through it kind of marks the entrance to the impassable canyon on the middle fork where the trail stops and really sheer cliffs come up.
It's one of the deepest canyons in North America. and then the Middle Fork flows into the main salmon river, and then eventually the Lower Salmon River and the Snake River and into the Columbia and then into the ocean. So we're just in this tiny part of this huge basin, huge watershed. but it's all connected. It's where the springs are, where our water begins.
For so much of Idaho and Washington State and the whole Columbia River Basin.
Jack Kredell:Do you think the changed environmental conditions post-fire have affected the the flow of springs?
Grace Peven:That's a good question. I know that there's been research done on how fires affected, creeks and streams, but not necessarily, not necessarily springs that I know of. but it's definitely fire From what I've observed, fire usually burns hotter around springs because there's more vegetation growth around springs, but then it recovers more quickly because it has that consistent source of of water.
So vegetation recovers more quickly. It's more resilient to fire because of that water source and higher water content in the vegetation to. But it's you know, fire can sometimes change the plant community within within watershed. so it's possible that maybe we're seeing different vegetation structure and dynamics Post-Fire but yeah, that's, that's hard to say. I don't, I don't know exactly how much these springs have changed.
I know I've noticed in some of, some of the springs at lower elevation that I've been studying, I've noticed that within the spring footprint there, standing dead conifers. And that's really interesting to me because they're doug firs and that's not where you typically that's not a hospitable environment for doug firs within a wetted basically a wetland, a spring footprint that's not where you typically see them grow.
So that makes me think that something after the fire changed the path, the flow path of the springs, or maybe those springs used to be in a different location, like there is some something happening there that, that I don't think that water used to be there because the Doug Firs wouldn't have been able to survive.
- Title:
- Grace Peven
- Creator:
- Jack Kredell
- Date Created:
- July 29, 2022
- Description:
- Jack Kredell interviews Grace Peven, a PhD researcher at the University of Idaho. Grace talks about her research, the impact of climate change on the wilderness region, the landscape around the research station.
- Subjects:
- rivers research springs ecology
- Location:
- Taylor Wilderness Research Station
- Latitude:
- 45.1028
- Longitude:
- -114.8517
- Source:
- Voices of Taylor - Jack Kredell Interview Project funded by the U of I Library and the College of Natural Resources
- Type:
- Image;MovingImage
- Format:
- video/mp4
- Preferred Citation:
- "Grace Peven", Taylor Wilderness Research Station Archive, University of Idaho Library Digital Initiatives
- Reference Link:
- https://www.lib.uidaho.edu/digital/taylor-archive/items/peven.html
- Rights:
- In Copyright. Educational Use only. Educational use includes non-commercial use of text and images in materials for teaching and research purposes. Digital reproduction permissions assigned by University of Idaho Library. For more information, please contact University of Idaho Library Special Collections and Archives Department at libspec@uidaho.edu.