Monique Lillard: We go here i'll start right now I am monique lillard and I am conducting interviews, on behalf of the University of Idaho library.

Which is doing an oral History project on the video rental store that was here in town sometimes known as Howard Hughes then later, known as mainstreet video co op i'm here today, it is let's see it is June 24 2021.

and

i'm talking with someone who will introduce himself in just one moment My first question is did you get a chance to sign the waiver online.

Yes, perfect and can you state your name.

Dale Graden: he'll graydon.

Monique Lillard: All right, great and you're sitting in your office at the university Is that correct.

Dale Graden: I am.

Monique Lillard: yeah it's nice it looks good so first talking about the video store.

How and when did you find out there was a video store in Moscow, maybe you went to more than one and did you ever go to Howard Hughes video.

Dale Graden: wow you're putting me on the spot, about an actual date.

don't worry um.

I arrived here.

I arrived here in August of 1992.

I don't know if the Howard Hughes video store was open at that point.

At some.

juncture and i'm sensing it's probably mid to late 1990s.

I started frequenting the store.

Now this have to do both with personal interests, because I watch a lot of film and at that point, it was pre really pre Internet so you know you're.

it's almost medieval thinking that we were it was vhs and then the dramatic move to at some point two.

DVDs which i'm still trying to catch up with a little humor little here.

and

So the motive was both personal we like to watch film and professional because I was.

At that point experimenting with not experimenting but I was using film and documentaries in my classes.

And the ui collection was okay was good, but the Howard Hughes collection help to supplement what I was doing in the classroom.

So again, this because This just shows you how rapidly our lives have changed, I mean at that point, I can remember requesting dv vhs through interlibrary loan.

And so, when Howard Hughes would have some of those I would have the kids.

encourage them and I really tried to make it financially, not a cost, just to let put it on the radar that the films were available in vhs down at Howard Hughes.

Now.

Things took a turn, and again I I was trying to think this through at some point, I was in what was the commons now I guess the student Center here at uci and I noticed a philosophy, Professor was teaching an online course in the summer.

And it was like.

All my radar went off, I mean I stood there looking at it, it was so it just opened up a whole new vista for me because I realized that.

I wasn't getting great enrollments in the summer I really wanted, I really wanted I don't want to belabor this discussion, but I hope it no.

Monique Lillard: No, it is absolutely great.

Dale Graden: Okay, I hope it all fits together.

At that point, I was only getting eight maybe eight kids in a summer class that's a waste of my time that's a waste of everybody's time I thought.

But when I realized that I could do an online course.

It was literally within a week that I had designed a what because now become history and film.

Courses online.

And at that point, it was still maybe Howard Hughes and maybe it was soon to be moving into the mainstream video Co.

Where I realized that I could do a six week summer course and they could literally go to the library take it out for 24 hours or go to Howard Hughes and take it out for 24 hours or whatever.

And that has evolved into i've done it now for i'm sensing 10 summers.

Since that point at that point, it was.

we're in 2021 so i'm sensing in the early 2000s I realized that could make this happen, and then they were literally physically going to get those those DVDs or vhs DVD and then now within over this past say 12 years.

This has really been fine tune where they can see it electronically, so I pay homage to in the spirit of the interview, I pay homage to Howard Hughes for really having some niche films.

The criterion collection, for example.

That helped me to get this thing off the ground.

Which is a fun course I think it's a great course in the summer for six weeks because kids can take it from anywhere in the world.

it's an added income on my part, and I really can experiment, I mean i've done, I think, five or six different themes in the summer, history and film Oliver stone history and films spike Lee history and filled popular culture in the Americas.

History and film soderbergh sales soderbergh and Spielberg I mean, these are great historical.

Analyses for a generation that's been raised on visual materials they're less inclined to read and more inclined to be way beyond me and expertise on the web use of visual materials YouTube.

So, again when the spirit of the interview Howard Hughes helped me out to get this off the ground, the ui library I think has really come on board.

Not only in terms of buying anything that i've asked for including some films that are i'm probably the only one, showing them what comes to mind is the agronomists it's a brilliant documentary about Haiti.

And I don't think i'm able even to do that electronically so they've really got to go over there and see it but it's that good.

and

You know these things and and I have, I will admit that it's not only summer I mean history in film now with the expansion of film studies.

I teach at least one of those I tend to teach one of those during the year and the last one I think had 45 students on spike Lee I mean that's pretty 6060 students on history and films spike Lee.

I think I had a few words to it, but you know it's it's it's it's refreshing it's fun it's stimulating I really like the discussions I think the kids really latch on to it.

So.

Those would be some of my comments about sort of both personal and, most importantly, professional, then I took notes, as in preparation for my comments I did want to say that I remember vividly when it moved to Main Street COP street is that the title Main Street video.

So I knew these people were struggling I definitely contributed some money to try to make the Co op work.

Why did I do that.

Because I just think Main Street has something real important for Moscow and I think it's something really, we need to work on, to try to keep it alive.

Particularly in the way in which the West is becoming all the same.

So you know we're bike friendly we're walking friendly i'd actually like to cut off cars on mainstream to make it truly just a walking only.

area, much like i'm thinking of boulder has some of these places that were streets that are now just wide open walking areas where you really preserve preserve you know the culture.

Of the other thing that I would mention is I I eat several days a week, on Main Street either mikey's one world CAFE or the Co op.

which I think are just really wonderful places, why do I think they're wonderful places well, not only because I get good food they're good soup, but we are facing a crisis of public space in this country.

it's harder and harder to just be in public space where you encounter everybody race, gender class and can communicate with them without a barrier.

which I cherish which I think is real important so yesterday I was at one world CAFE and my colleague ruler from what's that architecture, maybe she's doing research on interviewing people about one world CAFE you might actually want to be, you might want to chat with her.

and ask she's asking them why is one world CAFE important well one will CAFE happens to be across from what was Howard Hughes.

which I think is empty right now and I hope, something comes in there and I think we all need to work together as a community to you know, to create not only places public space, but also places where people can engage be encouraged to engage in positive ways.

In spite of some of the wackos who drive by in their cars with you know.

By.

Longer the President and making.

horrific comments about his wife.

that's one of the reasons why i'd like to cut off the traffic, but this is having to do, also with just engagement.

You know I move on, I mean i'm not a fan of online courses, to be honest, but I do it out of economic necessity and what am I, leading to.

it's just painful for me to how many how many people are looking into their cell phones when I walk by i'm begging for icon fact.

i'm begging for high contact with students on campus i'd like to ban cell phones on campus and in particularly classrooms you know I make it from.

from day one, please don't use your laptops for anything else but research in terms related to the class and please don't start texting on your cell phone, etc.

So I just think that there's something to be said for public space for preserving mainstream and Howard Hughes way back then, and then, and then the Co op which didn't survive.

I just felt those were friendly spaces creative spaces positive locations and rich in terms of culture, they had a lot to offer.

So those were some of my Those were some of my thoughts on work we did.

Monique Lillard: I have tons of follow up questions.

Okay, trying to decide where to start I think i'll start with the last one, and then move move back.

Dale Graden: down to my answers all.

Oh.

Monique Lillard: it's all good I know how it feels to want to get some thoughts out and i'll just say I really agree with you on your on your thoughts about.

A whole lot of things I walk downtown all the time and I don't even wear earbuds and listen to podcasts because a wise young man said to me, once all these people their heads aren't where their feet are.

Just the catches it when you're on the phone when you're.

When you're listening to a podcast as interesting as it may be, I like to be right here, listen to the birds, listen to the.

butter of that car that truck that I think you're referring to that has vulgar language on top of everything else and.

unbelievable that truck that goes around, but hopefully that'll be a blip I figured these interviews are talking to history and they'll think what are they talking about so let's just say there's some people who are against President Biden use bad words to describe him about.

Dale Graden: history and culture.

And tidbit for humor you draw them old push oh Is that correct.

Monique Lillard: it's a.

Dale Graden: French car.

Monique Lillard: it's a French car.

that's great yeah it was great seeing you go by, in that.

Dale Graden: Yes, and there's another car that goes by now where somebody's car they drive on the right hand side the.

Steel.

Dale Graden: This is also a French car gets a European car.

Monique Lillard: yeah it's probably English, but who knows yeah.

Dale Graden: Really caught my attention.

Monique Lillard: yeah good good good good that's funny but i'm just talking about the very end, you mentioned that the video store did not survive, what do you think contributed to its demise.

Dale Graden: Oh man I i'm suspecting that.

Just the whole online revolution has undermined it's real hard to have a real store anymore on any fun nevermind DVDs and and film it's just real hard to keep what is the word mortar store a real store alive, because people could.

You know the whole netflix revolution.

They didn't physically have to go to the store the whole issues of platforms beyond netflix all of these different platforms that are offering you know some very.

You know they're buying the top level movies, and offering them online, so you don't have to move don't have to get in the car and don't have to go there, so I mean I just think that it was you know, it was a there's a very famous novel by.

Gabriel Garcia marquez and titled.

Let me see the some of the the death for told the history of a depth foretold i'd have to check the original title brilliant novel.

And I just feel like a whole lot of entities didn't see what this this revolution was going to be about in terms of online buying renting.

on all fronts on all fronts, I I was way behind on that myself so i'm not putting the blame on anybody.

But you know I can remember when a colleague walked in Daniel zuercher, this is a 93 or four and he comes in, and he looks at my.

Computer and he says well you know you can be reading newspapers and sau Paulo here on your.

On your computer and I said to myself, what are you talking about I don't know I didn't even know what they were talking about so I was way behind on that and I think I was way behind on the way in which.

You know all of this, all of these materials can be.

can be downloaded from the Web now, I have to make one other comment, and that is i'm also a supporter of the kenworthy so I know what the meaning of the big screen is about.

So I think that was also an issue of of I don't want to say that Ken where they was competing with the Co op they know way but.

You know all of these entities, I think, felt huge amount of pressure of how they were going to survive in this new online world so that's sort of my incoherent answer to that.

Question it's good.

Monique Lillard: given me another follow up question here, but let me ask this one, what is gained and what is lost by this.

online world renting buying such as it is and i'll just say as a law professor former law professor, seems to me we're changing.

Our definition of property really you know if you can't buy something that's online, they can take it away, they can change it.

You know it's not you can use online to buy a tangible good, but when you buy sort of an online thing it's really just buying access or buying a right to get sort of close to what you thought you were buying that's a parentheses sorry but.

Dale Graden: you're speaking.

you're speaking about now of film and documentaries and said.

Monique Lillard: Yes, yes, films documentaries and even, I had a program on my phone that you would hold up to the stars and it would tell you what the stars were and it had beautiful drawings to look like the constellations.

And I paid $1 99 for it, and then they changed the drawings and I didn't like those new drawings and I realized, but I didn't own the old ones I just owned right to access what they were doing I lost a whole lot of power there you know.

And even for example ebooks you can only forward them a certain number of times, as I understand it, I don't read online personally but.

I think it's kind of odd you know newspaper archives well it's what they say the archives were right it's kind of interesting but I diverted there and i'm sorry.

Let me know.

Monique Lillard: What do we, what do we lose yeah.

Dale Graden: Look let's play with it let's stay with it, I don't read online books.

And so on one level um maybe that's unfortunate because you know I read a book and it's paper and I write in it, but it's still paper, so there there's an issue in terms of the material goods that have been maybe I would like to believe, maybe we're consuming less would.

Less materials less think by having some of this having some of the access to be online.

On the other hand, I mean obviously the chips the technology are creating massive dumps all over the world, so there's trade offs for everything and i'm really paying attention to this right now, because I want to buy.

I want to be right there with an electric car soon as possible, well electric car has there's a whole other world going on with electric cars.

Toyota doesn't tell you about their batteries wearing out and how polluting, they are the prices are more polluting then then hummers nobody was ever talking about that.

Monique Lillard: Now.

Dale Graden: I don't mind toyota's not telling you it.

You know that was a shock to me anyway, I haven't thought at length about what's gained and what's lost because for me.

i'll start with the loss the was to me, is not being able to see as many good films.

In a big at a big screen I.

Monique Lillard: don't think that's nice i'm sorry I can't stop it so.

Dale Graden: A little bit.

And I actually did this purposely because we had seen just recently, no man's land.

On a you know fairly large screen at home, but then we went to the camera they installed on the big screen.

And they are I could think about 10 different moments were on the big screen, I was picking up on certain gestures certain moments that you just don't get on your home televisions your even on your home big screen, however, big you want it to be.

um so you know that that's an issue.

That, I want to say, I think I started off by saying positive because I still like the big screen.

And I want to say that you know those are copyrighted those are patented and I don't think the film is going to change when except for maybe they're going to change the size of it in some way for the.

For the online now the negative part of online is.

You know, a whole lot this younger generation I realize i'd like to believe i'm part of that generation but i'll not the younger generation now is coming in and they they haven't been trained.

They haven't been I want to say train they haven't had the opportunity, so often I don't think to go to the big screens their their world is much more a cell phone screen.

or a computer screen and I just wonder if their skills are as finely honed through that medium, as it would be on a bigger screen so that's That to me is a negative.

How do I measure The next point that I want to make it somewhere in between, and that is.

One of the key reasons why I got into documentaries was way back in the 70s, I saw I think it was my first documentary black and white.

harlan county it's a classic the ui library owns that they bought it for me.

It was also directed I think one of the first documentaries directed by a woman about a failed strike in harlan county Kentucky.

And one of the managers, one of the elite of the company looks into the camera in New York City during protests and says there's no correlation between.

Black lung disease and these miners going into the minds and I said to myself that is a blatant lie and that kicked off in my own mind, it was part of my anti Vietnam War period.

It was part of everything that was going on in my life in terms of critical thinking in terms of hearing lies and trying to figure out what's going on.

What How does this fit into my answer, my answer is.

You know, I have to say, even for the negatives of online access, I would like to believe this younger generation is picking up some critical thinking skills, by having.

Access to just such an array of materials that I didn't have access to in the 70s and 80s, you have to you have to if you're going to rent something it has to come through the mail or you had to get some things if you were lucky through interlibrary loan.

DVDs weren't always so well made.

This new generation you press the button when you go to you know i'm not an Amazon fan, but when you go to Amazon it tells you 20 other books it tells you 20 other related topics for a film.

I just think that's an extraordinary tool and I would like to believe it's being used in a progressive manner for critical thinking skills, so a negative maybe being passive means it maybe being hey entertain me Professor I walk into a class, I want you to entertain me.

And I can't speak for 15 minutes straight and be pure entertainment i've got to mix it up and so again that's an incredible tool to go hey I just remembered something I go to YouTube there it is paying i'll show you two minutes, it really enhances a class.

But the negative side of that is entertain me so i'm hoping my hope my optimistic hope is that the access online can be hugely positive and helpful in terms of critical thinking skills.

Monique Lillard: yeah I mean, I think.

To sum up, just part of what you've said, you said a ton and it's great it's exactly what we're looking for in this, but let me say.

The interesting thing about technology is in a way to expand your world and in a way it narrows your world so with zoom, for example, which is the technology we're using right now.

i've connected with people I haven't spoken with in 45 years, and now we meet weekly and and I wouldn't be able to see them, even if we were in the same town and we're not you know people across the world.

netflix i've watched so many TV series from foreign countries i've heard so many languages, I would never have heard i've seen places i'm never going to visit.

And it just comes into me as you're right I don't even see it, it just comes in, we suggest this for you and we think oh how fun yeah sure, Iceland, Turkey, you know all these places.

As you were saying denser curse said so long ago.

i'm sure there's a newspaper in San Paolo I have no idea what it's called I.

don't know, but I doubt that any of the libraries in town carry it but you're right a quick Internet search and I could be looking at it, that this is amazing, and yet, as you also said.

The screens are get smaller and smaller, I think, young people are just looking like this, they actually say they're starting to get eyesight problems in hand problems from from all of that.

And it's not communal at you know, so I also went to nomad land at the kenworthy and just for the sake of completeness let's say that the kenworthy is an.

Old Moscow movie theater that actually had a vaudeville stage it then was a standard movie theater than has been bought by a private nonprofit.

First it was supposed to be bought to put on theatrical productions that they've started showing I was calling movies for grown ups on the weekends, and so you can see.

Probably not the big blast blockbuster movies, but interesting movies, in a group setting on the weekend and they finally opened after the pandemic and I was there to see no man's land which I had not seen.

And i'd actually see numb in the heights also on a big screen, just a few days before in a real theater and.

I had something happened, though at the theater and i've always heard about it and i'd never had it happen, some people sat down behind me, first of all to close for the coven protocols Okay, so they just ignored their assigned seating.

And they talked through the entire movie the entire movie Okay, and I didn't say anything to them, I thought about it, and for a variety of reasons, I didn't say anything and i'm kind of glad I didn't because I thought you know.

This whole pandemic we've been saying what we'd like people who, like the social experience and I thought, but you know there's.

You could call it a downside, or at least there is an alteration that comes from being with people, but also, I noticed how in certain.

moments in those movies hearing the whole audience GASP or laugh it to me enhances the experience so and I think this is what you're talking about with mainstream and the social interaction, am I right.

Dale Graden: Oh absolutely yeah you're more patient than I am I would have swatted a fight I give them.

I give them about 10 seconds, and then I turn around and I.

Start swinging.

Monique Lillard: We actually moved, but I could still hear him, you know how it goes that his cell phone goes off is unbelievable.

Dale Graden: I just turn around and give it.

Monique Lillard: Anyway, anyway let's see I had so many questions here to follow up on.

Okay let's see, let me go back to.

Your use of.

The videos from Howard Hughes or even from the library you mentioned several steps in in your assignments for class and I just wondered if you could give examples of back in the 1990s, when you.

Mainly use the ui library yes i've sent people downtown what just give me some titles, what kind of Titles did you find down at the at the Howard Hughes.

Dale Graden: Oh i'd have to really go back and check something.

If it goes i'm gonna i'm gonna think one, one that i'm pretty sure you I didn't know that they did own so that it came up a.

Few different occasions was a brilliant film from Martinique sugarcane alley.

And why did I use it.

Because the.

Obviously I teach Latin American history, Martinique, I teach the transatlantic slave trade it's about a young.

from Martinique and boy who the grandmother cut sugar cane, and he gets a scholarship at the at the colonial school.

And so he's learning he speaks cray all of Martinique, but then he's learning formal French at the colonial school, this is how they so it's a long.

Profound study of sugarcane the history of slavery and uncle who's teaching him about mother Africa and the teacher would not.

The teacher would not believe that he could write so well in French, he because he was writing poetry in French.

So it's a profound film huge incredible teaching tool and at that juncture I don't think you want you owned it Howard Hughes did, and I remember trying to figure out how I could take it out and make it available on.

My own interlibrary loan lending.

i'm trying to i'd have to think back if I was able to figure out a way of taking it out for a week and making it available to a class or maybe I took it out and showed it.

On the older bands in part of a class segments in the class, so there would be one.

Monique Lillard: Do you think you could find that online now.

Because.

Dale Graden: I can multitask.

i'm pretty sure that.

It might even be available for for free at YouTube.

Based on a very famous French novel I don't read French.

Which and i'm gonna have to I might have to turn something off here.

kane le okay so i'm seeing that right now in a quick review it's got key moments like there's a seven minute segment of there's two clips that i'm seeing at.

at it and what actually there it is, I think, in French, you can see, the whole thing.

Monique Lillard: Okay, because this is something I wonder if we've lost some access to some of the more obscure movies.

either because they're not profitable to any of these streaming companies or you know every now and then a streaming company just makes a political decision well that's a bad movie.

Rightly, it was gone with the wind last summer, you know, then there was an outcry, of course, but if it's not as famous as gone with the wind, they might say we don't want that, and that scares me a little.

Dale Graden: Yes, oh yeah and I would make two points in response, one is.

Another film that I think they owned and you I didn't know so again I showed segments was.

One of the most brilliant films out of Latin America memories of under development and it's by cuba's one of Cubans most famous filmmaker.

Who through Dennis West, I was able to meet over in Tacoma he tragically died at 63 so he made you know he made memories of under development, you might know strawberry and chocolate a brilliant.

brilliant Cuban film The bureaucrat I think Howard Hughes own the bureaucrat again you I didn't own that phil I think Howard Hughes own memories of under development I don't think at that point you I did and reserve under development is now available for free YouTube.

Okay, anyway, so those are some examples now your issue about things come and go, I wrote it, I wrote a message this morning to a couple of colleagues, I see that netflix.

A brilliant recent phil.

spotlight is going to be going off and off of netflix in July and I sit demanded that they see that film I don't know if you saw it.

Monique Lillard: But I thought it was an academy award winner i'm.

Dale Graden: surprised was oh yeah that's a fantastic netflix but you know they come for six months, and you know they I think netflix is renting them for six months, I see paying.

Paying However much to get accept and then it runs out, so I said to them, they need to see that film or otherwise, you know, at some point they'll have to rent it on their own, because i'm sure that's available through whatever platform for rental after netflix.

Monique Lillard: Yes, yeah and you've reassured me actually YouTube is sort of the savior maybe have some of the other things, but keep going keep going.

Dale Graden: No, there can be no doubt that at least I feel like, and this is not so much I don't think the people who are running YouTube, this is the eclectic you know nerds out.

In the universe all over the world who say hey man, we don't want to forget that moment in sugarcane ality where the young boys talking to his uncle up in the mountains.

Because that's where real education is taking place not in the colonial school and it's there it's amazing it's remarkable So yes, I do think that.

I think some of these streets, you know looking i'm just so alienated pi us US film production over the past 20 years it's just such garbage that I come back to your point about what a world it is too, I can tell you mentioned, Iceland, so you saw you saw at netflix the Eurovision film.

which I did.

Dale Graden: What a classic and how did I even get on to that i'm reading the New York Times, and I find out that the that the bar has become this cult.

Gathering for international tourists and I said man I better go home and watch this watch this bill, you know yeah anyway, you make these incredible connections and I pay homage to.

You know i'm quoting somebody the failing New York Times, which is setting setting records for PR people they've never had so many people online the New York Times, so I read their film reviews, while they're from your film reviews often.

are then noting ones from the past, you know the international films, where the director says this is who influenced me and that perks my interest to work my way backwards, and you know i'm able to find it and learn some things the other thing is.

and not to belabor this, but it is pretty remarkable i'm i'm a no social media no Facebook no instagram no no Twitter not not enough, but my wife and others lead me to certain things, and you know, Michael Moore.

makes Roger and me that's going back to probably the early 80s Roger head head of General Motors so i'd seen every documentary that Michael Moore has done and I read his blog I tried it.

And you know he's constantly citing the up and coming filmmakers and I just get such a kick out of your ass this goes back to the.

Previous question about the strengths and weaknesses Michael Moore during the coven isn't able to go to his office in New York, so he sets up his blog and his interviews in in a room in his apartment.

And it's staggering I mean it's millions of people have followed him now from his office with his with his interviews what's that called when you're doing the interview, I have to think.

anyway.

And he's able to get he doesn't have to fly them in but.

Like.

Monique Lillard: yeah you know.

Dale Graden: The cost of this is nothing much like our border symposiums no longer.

You know, able to.

get these people from around the world for a pittance compared to flying them in and paying them whatever staggering amount So yes, the tools here are truly remarkable in terms of access to international to people to ideas to critical thinking so.

Monique Lillard: yeah you know that's interesting, you said that about the board symposium the law school has the bellwood lecture series.

and using technology, you can get a much wider array of people for much less money.

Of course, you lose getting to go to dinner with them or walking down a street with them as you help them into the law school or whatever it is, you know.

As always it's these trade offs and I think it's fascinating I think you know if you're really interested, mainly in their ideas and, as you keep you've said, the phrase critical thinking many times.

it's beautiful to hear all these ideas and maybe that's more important than you know justice scalia poured me a glass of wine or.

Something like that you know it's sort of it's sort of interesting so anyway, I had another question for you and I appreciated that you gave some sense of what your online courses have been about in terms of history and film.

What is your one on pop culture what movies, do you show, or what do you talk about.

Dale Graden: You know I feel like I don't have a good answer for that i'm i'm alienated by a whole lot of pop culture.

Monique Lillard: Oh, why don't you try to class in pop culture, I maybe I misheard but you.

know.

Dale Graden: I think probably.

you've been talking to canton and kenton in.

The gentleman in journalism and mass media.

Is my good friend russ russ move.

Monique Lillard: move okay.

yeah.

Dale Graden: yeah right from says myth.

yeah I think that he.

i'm suspecting he's the one who's offering that class and popular culture so mine.

I really scrutinize what i'm.

Showing.

Dale Graden: and

But I mean I have, I have, I want to come up with a good answer for you, I mean, because this has to be defined as sort of part history part.

popular culture, and that is one of the most brilliant films to come out of chili is entitled Tony money so Tony magneto of Saturday night fever, he wants to be the Chilean Tony magneto.

And it's an extraordinary depiction of the desperation under the finished a dictatorship, through the prism of popular culture, so I don't want to say i'm totally.

You know, against popular culture, but you know when I see something good I eat you know I see I sees on it and so i've used that many times.

And I would suspect, you know I don't know protests popular protests in the streets of seen as popular culture, but I use a wide range of documentaries and films.

and other one is another Chilean one is my chuka about a young boy from a from a body of who he meets an upper class kit and they go into the streets to protest.

So that's a variant of popular culture, so I guess, I would say I use that to some degree, but not it's not central to history and film courses.

Monique Lillard: OK OK now what I think we have not talked about is the micro theater can you describe.

Dale Graden: What Oh, my goodness.

Now.

That we need another hour.

Monique Lillard: I know.

Dale Graden: we're we're at 40 to 45 hour, we are, I need another 45 minutes.

Okay, I I was raised outside of Providence Rhode island and.

Really i'm just i'm just so thankful until today that you know, I was, I was surrounded by a diverse town, you know, an Italian family really helped me out.

Providence was an Italian city in many ways, my parents were children of immigrants in western Massachusetts so that was a steel town, so I guess it was on my radar from an early age, about.

Immigration and diversity and the richness of different cultures.

and

Then I went school in Boston, and again I had some of these people were I played a lot of soccer, and these were all these you know they all have beards long hair.

And there was a I have to think about the film, there was a film that played every Saturday night for something like 10 years in Boston.

And it was about a Jamaican reggae star i'd have to go back and think about this it'll maybe it might even pop up as I go along, but I made an impression on me that you know these films could become sort of cult.

cult showings.

gosh I hate to forget films anyway.

And you know I just felt fortunate to go to an undergraduate college, where you know I felt like, on the one hand, because a lot of wasted socializing, on the other hand, certainly, I had some great.

Courses I had some great I think I learned more from the kids around you know just some of these brilliant musicians and deeply into culture, so what that was interesting to me.

And this is all sort of leading to the micro The other thing is Providence was a segregated city, and it really made an impact on me anyway, to make a long story short.

I met men chip my way through the world and get a PhD in Latin American history at the University of Connecticut which.

This is really an important part of this story at the micro and that is.

That New England Boston Connecticut we're very oriented either to Europe or the Caribbean okay so as an undergraduate I tutored Haitian janitors I didn't have a clue why they had left Haiti, it had to do with a dictatorship.

I didn't have a clue why Puerto ricans were so numerous in Connecticut it had to do with tobacco harvests i'm.

up in maine there were French Canadians that I got to know who would come down from Canada, so that was really knowing was melting pot, I have never been west of Chicago.

I didn't know a thing about the West, nothing and I flew out here, I think the only reason I got an interview here was that William swaggered who was on.

The faculty in the IT department of history had done a National Endowment for the humanities at the University of Connecticut and the Professor who's a was a brilliant guy had written me a recommendation.

it's weird how the world works, so I get an interview I fly out here.

And at that point, they have the connector from with horizon from spokane town to town here to Moscow pullman and what a what a bumpy flight that was I almost asked him to drive me back to.

Friday back to spokane and i'm it was striking to me how much the campus reminded me of New England and sure enough when you dig a little bit more around the own step brothers had done had done parks in New York.

New York City central park and they did many parks heading West and Seattle, you know and had done the campus here you why.

Monique Lillard: didn't they do the University of Western or didn't think.

East coast university.

Dale Graden: Oh i'm sure they did.

Monique Lillard: Number look like that that i've never looked at their list.

Dale Graden: But I can believe that they were way ahead of the they were way ahead of the game i'm trying to stop card roadways from coming in and destroying walking paths and they were deeply into trees public spaces with trees.

Monique Lillard: As we say here.

Dale Graden: As we as I look out my window here an admin you know.

Anyway, I got the job.

I took my 1990 pontiac and gotten the car and drove and I, it was a rite of passage because I stayed with maybe five different folks on the way out three of whom died within a year.

So it was like a rite of passage I get out here, I didn't know a soul, the apartment didn't have anything in it, my first night, so I slept on the floor up by the courthouse.

And the next night i'm out driving around at 630 in the evening I was looking for a place to eat in the micro has a has a film playing called.

know I think it's night on earth about five taxi drivers it's a classic and I.

know the door was sort of closed at the micro knock on the door there's one seat left I go in I sit out small independent theater.

And it was a brilliant film and I walked out and said man, this is this is amazing, this is remarkable, this is a night on earth for me.

One of the taxi drivers was in Helsinki, and he drops off the three guys, who are drunk and it's cold, I think one of them falls in the snow.

I happen to be Scandinavian I happen to have seen drunken revelers walking through the snow at night, it really struck a chord the one in one of the taxi drivers was maybe this was in.

Maybe this was in French West Africa, I have to think about that or maybe was in Paris and the driver was from the Ivory Coast.

And the woman gets in the backseat and she starts speaking to him in like Ivory Coast friends.

And he he's like looking at the wheel, looking ahead, I just remember these funny scenes about the power of language and what happens in a taxi and diverse environments anyway, I got hooked on the micro and you know I literally i'd say I I saw hundred films at the micro.

Micro was serious about getting good international films.

And it was just a bad day a sad day when it was sold and turned into a tattoo parlor parlor.

Once again.

It was a real niche and I deeply appreciated it and some of the films that I saw that I then apply to my classes, etc, so.

Monique Lillard: What do you think did in the micro.

Dale Graden: Micro it's virtually impossible, the it's much like on Main Street, with people it's it's real difficult to be an independent anything today it's real hard.

So when in summer came as you well know, it's a quiet time in Moscow somebody made the book funny joke tell me a golf course in the United States, where, when the summer comes there's less people playing golf.

Like at the ui golf club well that hurt the micro micro just had a real hard time in the summer, even with the best of films that would only fill up a quarter to a half way that just that was difficult, so I think those were some those that was a key reason.

And it's just you know it just became real difficult.

Monique Lillard: yeah I have a message to out to, is it not sure if his first name Bob and maybe pseudo.

Dale Graden: As ut yeah it was the yeah.

Monique Lillard: I hope, oh him get in touch with the would say i'd like to talk to us.

Dale Graden: yeah I don't know you know the person who might know where is this dentist West i'm not sure.

Monique Lillard: yeah we're trying to get in touch with Dennis wesley's my.

Dale Graden: mom are you there online so they're over there on the coast, so they will respond.

Monique Lillard: Yes, my co interviewers bone newsome who was actually a former manager at the video cooperative and.

He knows Dennis and so he's trying to get in touch so where I want to nail that down because I think many, many interviews have mentioned Dennis West so.

we're working on that so.

Dale Graden: doesn't drink.

Monique Lillard: Hennessy Joan and I knew john, of course, because she was a French teacher.

yeah yeah so i'll just say what I one way of interpreting your story about that first night in Moscow and going to see that movie about the taxi drivers is it was sort of a good omen it kind of set your time in Moscow is that right.

Dale Graden: That is correct.

Monique Lillard: Yes, I.

Dale Graden: was just gonna say, for I mean it was like really this is interesting because I really thought it's going to be here, maybe one or two years and then push on you know off and everybody thinks that UCLA.

Things that yeah.

And then.

Then I start meeting some of these.

Just incredible you know these hippies who stayed here from the 16th and the you know there's a saying that nobody in moscow's from Moscow, you know I mean, certainly at the university it's a hugely international place.

So, yes it started things off in a very positive way and for all the downs, the positive has the positives outweigh the negatives.

Monique Lillard: So that's good.

there's also a saying that if you ever sit on those.

benches in friendship square yeah.

That there's an invisible rubber band that goes around your leg, and it will always pull you back.

Dale Graden: That was.

Monique Lillard: Peter casella who said that to me, who was he worked at book people and was a personality around town i'll also say my first night in Moscow same thing, I thought i'm not staying here long and oh my gosh what have I done.

i'm staying with the super eight, and I see a rainbow and i'm not kidding you it ended at the College of law and that's where I was going to teach.

Dale Graden: You know here was that what year.

Monique Lillard: 1987 it was July of 1997 so.

Dale Graden: that's a good story.

Monique Lillard: it's so funny one yep all right, what else should I have asked you what else would you like to say.

Dale Graden: I was out for a walk yesterday afternoon and I ran into your former dean and former President don.

Monique Lillard: don burnett.

Dale Graden: and burn burn it always asked me about my daughter this this is sort of better off the record because she's going to get angry.

Monique Lillard: happy to stop the video, if you want, but it's.

more fun for us if you.

Dale Graden: Let it run and he always asked about her.

And he said I said she was preparing for the lsat.

Yes, and.

He said, we have a new Dean and he's based in Boise and she comes up for maybe a week every period of time, so, and she happens to also be a Yale graduate.

So maybe your I would encourage you taught her to maybe make contact and talk to her a little bit about her journey, and it was like you know I just feel like big cities are impersonal places i'm out for a walk and i'm talking to a man of his stature who's asking me about my journey.

I treasure that I mean that's what small towns are about so anyway.

Monique Lillard: I know your daughter, as a matter of fact, I was involved with police pathways when she was.

Dale Graden: Yesterday, she still there she's still with us.

Monique Lillard: yeah she might be the same classes my son did she graduated in.

Dale Graden: 20 1616 and.

Monique Lillard: 20 yes.

Yes, mixed with my son, which, since this is being recorded classic Moscow moment you know you know people I would say in all sorts of different drawers of your life, you know work.

kids who are you walk and you know it all cross references for me quiet riot and yeah all right anything else that you want to say and then.

Dale Graden: The recording but stay on for a.

Monique Lillard: minute, but.

Dale Graden: yeah let's see here if there's anything else that I would like, I think I, since this is ui library i'm appreciative that I press the button and I don't think they've ever said no to anything I wanted to buy like a book or a film or and now they have a specific person who is.

That person has changed, I think it's Kelly now.

Who are huge support, help to me, you know, in terms of putting things on reserve getting electronic access to films and documentaries, I just wanted to express that appreciation.

Monique Lillard: very nice if you'll stay on i'll stop the recording but you've given me a lot of time and really good insight it's exactly what we're hoping for so.

Dale Graden: All right, let's go here.