Zoe Swayne Interview Audio [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Today is the 4th of October. I am with Zoe Swayne in Orfeo. I go home. I’ll start off by asking you your name. and so,

00:00:29:12 - Zoe Swayne: So,

00:00:30:05 - Unknown Interviewer: C o e s w a y and e. Is that right? That’s right. have you ever had a nickname?

00:00:41:04 - Zoe Swayne: No. Not really.

00:00:44:00 - Unknown Interviewer: what was your maiden name?

00:00:45:10 - Zoe Swayne: Sha.

00:00:46:11 - Unknown Interviewer: ACH a w. Yes. and your address here is,

00:00:52:17 - Zoe Swayne: Box 786.

00:00:56:28 - Unknown Interviewer: And I just don’t really know if, what was the date of your birth?

00:01:03:16 - Zoe Swayne: December 2019, five.

00:01:08:14 - Unknown Interviewer: And where were you born?

00:01:09:25 - Zoe Swayne: Torrington, Wyoming.

00:01:12:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Torrington. TR I see. TR and.

00:01:21:27 - Unknown Interviewer: what was the location of your first residence in Idaho?

00:01:25:25 - Zoe Swayne: In Camas County at Carroll, Idaho. C o r r a l.

00:01:37:06 - Unknown Interviewer: And you came from what location?

00:01:39:17 - Zoe Swayne: From curlew, Washington. C u r l w.

00:01:46:29 - Unknown Interviewer: Yeah. Washington. And approximately what year was that?

00:01:51:04 - Zoe Swayne: 1919

00:01:55:00 - Unknown Interviewer: How did you travel?

00:01:56:10 - Zoe Swayne: By covered wagon.

00:02:01:05 - Unknown Interviewer: And who were your companions on that trip?

00:02:04:10 - Zoe Swayne: There was another family who came with us named Ben. Starts s t o t t is his wife, self and three little children. Of course, there were our own family. I had a brother and a sister. Younger.

00:02:27:24 - Unknown Interviewer: And your parents? Yes. I have a few questions to ask about your mother’s background and her family. What was her maiden name?

00:02:38:06 - Zoe Swayne: Her name was with the May Tillman t o m and.

00:02:48:21 - Unknown Interviewer: And what was the date of her birth?

00:02:50:07 - Zoe Swayne: April 22nd, 1884.

00:02:55:13 - Unknown Interviewer: And where was she born?

00:02:58:23 - Zoe Swayne: Utica, Nebraska. think it’s Utica.

00:03:06:12 - Unknown Interviewer: when did she passed away?

00:03:08:06 - Zoe Swayne: She’s still living down here in the rest of 91 years old.

00:03:11:22 - Unknown Interviewer: 91? Well, yes. 18 as far as, Do you know what year she was married?

00:03:21:11 - Zoe Swayne: 19. Four.

00:03:25:13 - Unknown Interviewer: has she had any, jobs after, an occupation?

00:03:30:00 - Zoe Swayne: Just a farm wine. And mother.

00:03:38:22 - Unknown Interviewer: Well, I have some similar questions to ask about your father and his family. And your father’s name was a great deal.

00:03:46:04 - Zoe Swayne: All right. PA h e IL sung. IL sung. And his name was. They call him rebar.

00:04:01:06 - Unknown Interviewer: What was the date of his birth?

00:04:02:17 - Zoe Swayne: March the 8th, 1879.

00:04:08:13 - Unknown Interviewer: And where was he born?

00:04:10:19 - Zoe Swayne: In Phillips County, Kansas. In the dugout.

00:04:24:20 - Unknown Interviewer: where? When did he die?

00:04:30:25 - Zoe Swayne: So I’ve got to get the year here in.

00:04:44:18 - Zoe Swayne: 1964

00:04:49:12 - Unknown Interviewer: What was his occupation?

00:04:56:26 - Zoe Swayne: The department rancher.

00:05:02:06 - Zoe Swayne: What do I see? Just what I was saying.

00:05:06:10 - Unknown Interviewer: Just right. That was a that was honorable job. Still is. Consider viable effort. yeah. Did you have two sisters?

00:05:18:22 - Zoe Swayne: One sister? And her name? Devoted immediately. Capital D in capital Volta.

00:05:31:24 - Unknown Interviewer: and you had, one brother. One brother and his name. And his name.

00:05:36:19 - Zoe Swayne: Was Winfield Louis Shaw. But his name is. No one knows him by that. He is merely it.

00:05:45:19 - Unknown Interviewer: In 19.

00:05:51:26 - Unknown Interviewer: And that’s all the brothers and sisters you had. All right, let’s, ask about your husband now. His name is.

00:05:59:27 - Zoe Swayne: Samuel. Yeah. Swain.

00:06:07:20 - Unknown Interviewer: when was he born?

00:06:10:26 - Zoe Swayne: 97. December 22nd.

00:06:17:24 - Unknown Interviewer: Well, your birth date one. Right? I’m older than me. The very thing. Right.

00:06:25:24 - Zoe Swayne: He always gets the birthday cake, and I get the leftovers.

00:06:31:05 - Unknown Interviewer: Isn’t that interesting? I’ve never run into that. Where was he born?

00:06:36:10 - Zoe Swayne: In.

00:06:45:11 - Zoe Swayne: Well, it was near Fort Wayne, Indiana, but he was born in Ohio. Across the line. It’s right near the colon.

00:06:57:00 - Zoe Swayne: Can you just skip that?

00:06:58:10 - Unknown Interviewer: That’s close enough to Ohio. So, no. Near Fort Wayne? Yeah. Oh. When were you married?

00:07:09:05 - Zoe Swayne: June 2nd, 1934.

00:07:13:19 - Unknown Interviewer: And where?

00:07:15:05 - Zoe Swayne: Spokane.

00:07:20:05 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh. What’s his occupation? He’s a lawyer.

00:07:26:26 - Unknown Interviewer: And practicing lawyer now.

00:07:29:09 - Zoe Swayne: Well, he’s supposed to be retired. Is still going. It’s every day,

00:07:38:04 - Unknown Interviewer: well, I’ll just leave it at that. That’s, I understand completely what you mean. Do you have children or sons? All right. And, I would like to know their name, the date, the place where they were born and what occupation is now.

00:07:54:15 - Zoe Swayne: The oldest is David, born March before 1936.

00:08:05:00 - Unknown Interviewer: And we’re what’s important here in the oil field. And his occupation?

00:08:12:12 - Zoe Swayne: He is the lawyer.

00:08:16:13 - Unknown Interviewer: Is he still living in this area?

00:08:18:01 - Zoe Swayne: He lives in Moscow.

00:08:25:11 - Unknown Interviewer: the next one.

00:08:26:13 - Zoe Swayne: Is James, and he was born March the 4th, 1938.

00:08:37:16 - Zoe Swayne: And he is a veterinarian in Mount Vernon, Washington.

00:08:47:23 - Unknown Interviewer: Was he born in or if you know all of them? Right.

00:08:53:00 - Zoe Swayne: The third son is John.

00:08:58:01 - Zoe Swayne: Or June the 6th. 1945.

00:09:06:24 - Unknown Interviewer: And what is he doing?

00:09:07:21 - Zoe Swayne: And he is in his last year of law school. At law school.

00:09:20:24 - Zoe Swayne: And the youngest is Mark Carney. Mark, he is his. Since he’s gone into the workforce and the his business associates got in can. So you can put k m or something. I don’t.

00:09:36:03 - Unknown Interviewer: Care how.

00:09:37:10 - Zoe Swayne: It used to get going and ask him because we always come and work anyway. He was born January the 17th.

00:09:50:23 - Zoe Swayne: 1947

00:09:54:28 - Unknown Interviewer: And he’s in business.

00:09:56:19 - Zoe Swayne: He’s a mechanical engineer and he’s in Saudi Arabia working with Aramco.

00:10:08:14 - Unknown Interviewer: That must be very interesting. Did we like it very much.

00:10:14:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Did he have a family.

00:10:15:24 - Zoe Swayne: With his two little boys and his wife. And she’s the kind of person that can take it.

00:10:26:24 - Unknown Interviewer: Well that’s fortunate.

00:10:28:21 - Zoe Swayne: So she she’s a wonderful wife for him.

00:10:32:26 - Unknown Interviewer: I know I want to ask about some more personal information about yourself. what educational background you have.

00:10:40:13 - Zoe Swayne: Where. graduate from the University of Idaho with B.S. and education in 1931.

00:10:51:23 - Zoe Swayne: Before that, I went to Albion Normal for one year.

00:10:58:04 - Zoe Swayne: And I graduated from high school. Good high school in 1930, 1923.

00:11:08:03 - Unknown Interviewer: What did you do between from the time you graduated high school to start to college?

00:11:14:27 - Zoe Swayne: I just went right from high school to Albion.

00:11:18:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh. So, over 1923, I.

00:11:22:01 - Zoe Swayne: Went to Albion School. It was from the University of Idaho that it got in 1931.

00:11:28:06 - Unknown Interviewer: In 1931?

00:11:29:14 - Zoe Swayne: Yes. This is 1939.

00:11:31:28 - Unknown Interviewer: Yeah.

00:11:33:12 - Zoe Swayne: Yeah, I’ve been normal. I went from 23 to 24. All right. I was only four, 17 years old when I started normal school. And then I taught all the other times from then on in there through letters to CS before I got married, I taught school in grade school.

00:11:57:25 - Unknown Interviewer: Grade school.

00:12:02:27 - Unknown Interviewer: All right. Have you had any other job?

00:12:05:26 - Zoe Swayne: No.

00:12:07:07 - Unknown Interviewer: And but you’ve taught, school at various times. Or was that.

00:12:11:14 - Zoe Swayne: Up until the time I was married? I taught school after that. My husband said he didn’t want me to do anything else but stay home and take care of children. And he felt he should support the family.

00:12:26:00 - Unknown Interviewer: How did you feel about that?

00:12:27:19 - Zoe Swayne: That I didn’t mind that so much. But every had my own money and earned my own money. It was just, that was the worst adjustment to make.

00:12:38:29 - Unknown Interviewer: Can you talk a little bit about that.

00:12:41:12 - Unknown: Well.

00:12:45:08 - Unknown: I don’t know.

00:12:46:06 - Zoe Swayne: It would say more than that. It was, it was an adjustment to me that I, I, you have to feel like this is the family’s money and you just can’t have something to play with or do what you want to do with it. As if you were earning your own money, then you can buy little goodies or do something extra.

00:13:09:19 - Unknown Interviewer: So it makes a difference in the decisions.

00:13:12:12 - Zoe Swayne: That are made. If you’re, if you’re a responsible person and wanting to go to to be the partner.

00:13:22:29 - Zoe Swayne: And not too early in our marriage we decided that we would not fall victim to salesmen who came to the doors without consulting for everybody. And we tried to. To work together that way. Not one going off. What unilateral.

00:13:52:21 - Unknown Interviewer: So when you get paid big decisions you made big purchases. You discussed this.

00:14:00:25 - Zoe Swayne: That’s right.

00:14:03:04 - Zoe Swayne: And then sometimes. Well okay. That’s all right.

00:14:08:13 - Unknown Interviewer: All right. Let’s talk a little bit about the various skills you’ve developed through the years. some of your homemaking skills. Do you see one? I know you’re an artist. Two. So, let’s listen.

00:14:22:01 - Zoe Swayne: Well, I’ve learned to cook much better than I did at the beginning. Oh, all of it. And I’ve learned to sew better than I did it to begin with.

00:14:40:16 - Unknown Interviewer: Do you do painting like crazy.

00:14:43:25 - Zoe Swayne: Yeah.

00:14:45:07 - Unknown: All right. Painting.

00:14:53:21 - Zoe Swayne: I don’t do fancy bread very much. It hurts my hands I can paint, I can hold a paint brush all day long. But I can’t do crochet without it hurting my hands. So I don’t do very much of that.

00:15:13:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Painting and drawing, that’s all you draw I, I put that down. Do you do community organizational work groups?

00:15:29:11 - Zoe Swayne: Well, at this age I’m trying to get out of it, but in years past I’ve been in the thick of it. So through that it you w. And. You’re helping to organize the Clearwater Art Association. And I was a charter member of a UW here. And it helped to organize the Clearwater Historical Society. do.

00:16:11:08 - Zoe Swayne: I’ve been the exhibits.

00:16:16:01 - Zoe Swayne: Committee chairman and in the museum. I was. A member of the Nez Perce Tribal Advisory Committee for about two years. I was the art chairman for the Idaho Territorial Centennial Commission.

00:16:42:08 - Zoe Swayne: And did.

00:16:46:04 - Zoe Swayne: I was I helped to, organize. And I was on the board of directors for the to where art Gallery, which operated for six years here.

00:17:02:16 - Zoe Swayne: And we had to fold it up because the. It had come down to the point that there were just a few people trying to do all the jobs, and it was getting too much for us after all that time. We just felt we had to live our own lives a little bit. I was. It was growing into a real business.

00:17:31:19 - Unknown Interviewer: And all too successful.

00:17:34:03 - Zoe Swayne: It was. And all voluntary, no remunerative remuneration for anybody. But it was the very, the pressure of trying to keep it going and falling on such a few people. We had to close it to the regret of all of us.

00:17:54:00 - Zoe Swayne: But anyway that was generally that ended up as the director of the.

00:18:03:00 - Zoe Swayne: And always been active in, in church trying to.

00:18:11:18 - Zoe Swayne: Go.

00:18:12:19 - Unknown Interviewer: What church is that.

00:18:13:23 - Zoe Swayne: United Methodist church.

00:18:22:07 - Zoe Swayne: So that’s about all. And then trying to just ooze out of those things. Because I want to in any extra time I have, I want to put in.

00:18:35:12 - Zoe Swayne: Writing and and illustrating.

00:18:43:25 - Zoe Swayne: The book that, illustrated was done well before my last baby was born in little John would wake up from his nap. Is the earliest that the least little rustle of paper like this. We want to help. Help, help. And so some of these little marks are in these pictures, too.

00:19:07:04 - Unknown Interviewer: What was the title of that book?

00:19:09:03 - Zoe Swayne: Great grandfather in the Family Tree.

00:19:14:07 - Zoe Swayne: It’s a story that my father, my husband, father used to tell to the children as they sat around at milking time, milking their little country children’s stories. So he got to telling it to the boys, and they demanded it every night. And we decided, well, if it meant so much to them, perhaps I could take a look like so.

00:19:38:04 - Zoe Swayne: He he told the story and I did the illustrations for it.

00:19:42:23 - Unknown Interviewer: In the interest.

00:19:44:16 - Zoe Swayne: And the greatest reward big had been from letters that little children have written all over the country to this.

00:19:53:23 - Unknown Interviewer: Publisher. This is. Is it still in print? Yes.

00:20:04:08 - Unknown Interviewer: Printing press.

00:20:05:17 - Zoe Swayne: In fact, I think this is a book that, we just have on hand. It isn’t too.

00:20:17:24 - Unknown Interviewer: Far in the country. So I’ll be sharing it with Stan.

00:20:32:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh, just delightful pictures.

00:20:41:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh, nice. Oh, I’m gonna have to see if I can get a copy of that. That’s not. That’s very nice. I really enjoy seeing.

00:20:52:26 - Zoe Swayne: I think this copy is available. I’ve had a few, and it isn’t one of the children, but own some of them. You can have this, if you will.

00:21:04:16 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh, just to give you the money for that before I leave. Then I’d be happy. You really like to have that? Very much. Well, that completes our, Questions on the personal thing. I have some other questions to ask you, but first, I’d like to say that if there’s anything else you prefer, not answer. That’s perfectly all right.

00:21:24:26 - Unknown Interviewer: Just say that and they’re meant to be a kind of a point of departure. So if that reminds you of something else you want to talk about, please go ahead and do it. We it’s trying to stimulate you to talk about something. What do you see as some of the advantages and disadvantages of living in rural areas such as this?

00:21:49:18 - Zoe Swayne: Well, to me, I think it’s the personal freedom. You could be yourself and do what you want to do. You aren’t pressured by. Neighbors.

00:22:09:01 - Zoe Swayne: I just believe that’s what it means most to me. Just the freedom of moving out. It is a good being yourself a little more.

00:22:17:20 - Unknown Interviewer: Are you one is concerned about more people moving into this valley.

00:22:22:20 - Zoe Swayne: I think I am right, I can see that it’s encroaching. The town is encroaching on us and, and our lives are more complicated. So every person that moves in it means little children running around picking fruit and and things being destroyed where before nothing had happened. Before. And I could see if that’s what’s happening with the town coming up this way, as more people move in, we just won’t have the broad vista to look up.

00:23:04:00 - Zoe Swayne: We will have to contend with more groups to look at and all that. Well, before we had this beautiful green tree.

00:23:14:25 - Unknown Interviewer: Have you noticed a change in values of people come in, say, from California or outside?

00:23:24:04 - Zoe Swayne: During the construction years, we had quite a number of construction people.

00:23:29:21 - Unknown Interviewer: Now that construction, you can put more shock down.

00:23:37:29 - Zoe Swayne: And I would say their sense of values was different from, from ours. It, it seemed to me that they bought things as a status symbol, keeping up with the other fellows on the job or to us the possession of things didn’t mean things. The people who are coming in now, I think are coming for a different reason. They come for the.

00:24:11:09 - Zoe Swayne: For recreation. Or if they’re going to come to retire. It’s more for the country, around the country. Then we have a, larger number of very well educated people. I’m thinking of those who come to our church. They’re very well educated and a high standard, of moral values. They’re just they like.

00:24:47:24 - Zoe Swayne: And they appreciate the community and the country but they don’t necessarily all come from California. They come from out all over.

00:25:00:29 - Unknown Interviewer: larger urban areas. Is that, can you generalize that. The retired ranch P ranch owners.

00:25:14:02 - Zoe Swayne: I’m thinking of the younger ones. The ones that that are in our church are younger ones. Some have come in to work on the fish hatchery and some of the Forest Service people and the.

00:25:34:15 - Zoe Swayne: Well, I think the job opportunities have brought in these.

00:25:38:28 - Unknown Interviewer: Folks that a result of the dam development reward recreation, facilities developed with the Forest Service, which it takes more supervision when the forests are opened up.

00:25:53:28 - Zoe Swayne: And then there are people who come in to work on setting up campsites on the, around the lake area, wherever there’s some specialized work, there’s this, persons who come have been, of course, educated enough to do the job. And, and I think the more educated people have a better sense of the values.

00:26:22:28 - Unknown Interviewer: there was a when you first came here. Did you feel kind of isolated in this respect? Am I hearing you say that there were not as many educated people who were compatible with you? Did you feel that at all?

00:26:39:15 - Zoe Swayne: They just weren’t that many, so many people here at that time. But in 1934, when we came here. There were a group of about ten university women. It was in 1935 at the four in the UW. And so there’s always, for me at least, been a group of educated persons that I could.

00:27:13:15 - Unknown Interviewer: So you really didn’t feel that isolated here. Well that was right in the middle of the depression. What was that like. And or you know.

00:27:21:27 - Zoe Swayne: Came over to end the depression I don’t know.

00:27:26:01 - Unknown Interviewer: Was it, were people really.

00:27:30:14 - Zoe Swayne: I only know by hearsay that the Methodist Church minister just kind of threw the whole church open for the people who had no food. I think there were a lot of transients that came through at that. And so there was desperate need of soup kitchens for them. I don’t know anything much more about it than that.

00:27:55:25 - Zoe Swayne: our experience was in southern Idaho on the Wheat Ridge. The wheat got down to $0.17 a bushel and we had plenty of food, but there wasn’t any money to buy things with. And I taught school for, I think it was $75 a month and then had to be paid with warrants that had to be cash discount. There just wasn’t any money.

00:28:26:13 - Zoe Swayne: and it was the only time in my life we’ve never our family was not our rich family, but we never felt poor because we were like all the other people around. But this was the first time, and the only time in my life that I felt really poverty stricken. There wasn’t anything you could do about it.

00:28:46:02 - Unknown Interviewer: A feeling of helplessness. explain that little bit about warrants. how did that work and what did that mean?

00:28:54:23 - Zoe Swayne: It meant that you were paid with, piece of paper. And I can’t quite remember how it was worded, but the, the fact was that you could take this warrant to a store, the store would buy the warrant. It would just. I think it would be a warrant, you know, that the school district wouldn’t pay, pay for it in due time when they had the funds.

00:29:25:25 - Zoe Swayne: And so the storekeeper would buy this warrant from you, giving you a discount on that. He if you had something for a $75, he would give you maybe $70. I don’t know, miss, for instance.

00:29:39:00 - Unknown Interviewer: So in effect, he was gambling on was and was holding it in for an indefinite period. Right. so he took that risk, whatever that amounted to. And you, did he give you cash for it or would he give you only trade in in groceries?

00:29:55:25 - Zoe Swayne: We got cash. But the thing that irritated me was the this the county superintendent would own, that would go to her and ask about being paid in Morris. She would open her books and say, look, here’s the there’s it’s all in the clear. You’ve your county, your district has money and everything. So. All right, well, I would ask, why are we being paid this way?

00:30:26:13 - Zoe Swayne: Why can’t I have a check? And well, she would show all in her books. And I said, well, if there’s this much money, what’s happening? But. Well, they were putting it all into a common fund and that the county officers were being paid out of the school funds. And I said, well, why, why don’t you pay us?

00:30:52:25 - Zoe Swayne: Well, we would get no pay back. And she said, and this was not a unique case. There were others that I don’t think the test case was made at that time, but there could have been had we pressed, that that takes money and a lot of fighting.

00:31:13:17 - Unknown Interviewer: Yes. And the person at the lower, level had less, resources to do that, legal fighting with.

00:31:24:04 - Zoe Swayne: But that was the case. They were so desperate, it they helped themselves first.

00:31:30:12 - Unknown Interviewer: they had higher priority.

00:31:32:11 - Zoe Swayne: Well, I don’t think they had any right to that.

00:31:34:08 - Unknown Interviewer: They didn’t. They took the.

00:31:35:10 - Zoe Swayne: School district money.

00:31:37:19 - Unknown Interviewer: By virtue of their power and their position maybe, you.

00:31:40:08 - Zoe Swayne: Know, just like the books, they knew what they could do.

00:31:44:28 - Unknown Interviewer: Well that’s the first time I’ve heard that explain. But I think that’s a unique viewpoint. You had to be able to describe what happened in that time. So and then you were married in 34 and you’re saying that’s the end was born as the end of the.

00:32:18:09 - Zoe Swayne: Debt to pay.

00:32:19:21 - Unknown Interviewer: All right. So I had to switch the tape, and I want to get that on there. When you were first married and you moved to our final.

00:32:26:07 - Zoe Swayne: We were $75 in debt, so I had to borrow that much money.

00:32:32:24 - Unknown Interviewer: for travel expenses to get here, various things.

00:32:36:07 - Zoe Swayne: And to finish up his college and to rent a house for us to live in and to get started. He had a summer job in the home that we’re still doing blister rust work at Pierce. So he went out into the woods and I spent my honeymoon in Pierce.

00:32:59:20 - Speaker 4: Oh.

00:33:02:26 - Unknown Interviewer: Well, he finished up this summer job. He was.

00:33:05:13 - Zoe Swayne: Doing his.

00:33:06:02 - Unknown Interviewer: Work. But how do you find his way through college doing this?

00:33:10:09 - Zoe Swayne: He graduated from law school that year. And took his exam the day he was married. I don’t know, he was so concerned that that.

00:33:22:21 - Unknown Interviewer: You feel you weren’t getting his full attention.

00:33:24:27 - Zoe Swayne: No. He, he, he was through with his exam by that time. But immediately after that we went to Pierce and he went out to the woods and I was left in tears to goodbye sister.

00:33:42:00 - Unknown Interviewer: But you had this tremendous for that time, $75. Was it considered?

00:33:46:08 - Zoe Swayne: It was a oh. Did it worried him? Debts do worry him. It didn’t bother me as much as it did him. But we we paid it off. And of course, at the end of that summer, he had I think he’d earned $125 a month, which wasn’t very much, but an old friend of Fino. And we found, little apartments for $8 a month.

00:34:14:22 - Zoe Swayne: And for a while we lived until he called it Glenn Gray. Porridge or pudding? Made it Farina in two days, which was nourishing enough. But we didn’t eat very luxuriously at that time.

00:34:33:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Know he was getting his law practice started in.

00:34:35:26 - Zoe Swayne: It was slow going. Yes, you just don’t jump in and get a big practice. Then there was an old doctor who had offices across the hall and who let me be an office girl for a while. Then I earned a little bit more money than sand did.

00:34:55:06 - Unknown Interviewer: That’s interesting.

00:34:56:10 - Zoe Swayne: But together we got started.

00:34:59:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Okay. And you soon had your first son to fill him. So, do you notice a difference in the way people, look at going into debt these days as compared to the way you viewed it, then? Oh.

00:35:19:16 - Zoe Swayne: That doesn’t mean anything to them. They they can borrow money.

00:35:26:23 - Unknown Interviewer: And.

00:35:28:04 - Zoe Swayne: Get things on time. Payments. Don’t even think about the end result until they have more payments to make than they have money coming in. And then you get a little bit worried.

00:35:44:17 - Zoe Swayne: Usually some of them have to take bankruptcy and start over again.

00:35:49:28 - Unknown Interviewer: And your training just wasn’t.

00:35:52:07 - Zoe Swayne: We were not trained. It wasn’t didn’t occur to us. In fact it wasn’t I don’t think it was possible to buy things on installment plan so much of that. Okay. No to.

00:36:05:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Do even if it were possible, it sounds as though you and your husband would do without whatever it was. And to really afford to.

00:36:16:21 - Zoe Swayne: That’s right. That’s the most sensible way we found.

00:36:21:29 - Unknown Interviewer: And that was more universal then wasn’t it. That was a general feel.

00:36:26:16 - Zoe Swayne: You pay for it as you go. Very good. But you can afford to pay.

00:36:32:06 - Zoe Swayne: And you are not burdened then by this debt. When you buy by installments you, you pay finance charges which amount sometimes I’m not too. Informed of it but I think it gets up to about 36% or more. So you.

00:36:58:01 - Unknown Interviewer: Like, people just don’t know how much they’re paying.

00:37:01:02 - Zoe Swayne: They don’t realize that these young people that start up, they don’t realize it. You just think, well, I can get it and pay for it bit by bit. But they do not realize that they’re paying an exorbitant rate of interest. Well, if they have the discipline and the vision to wait a little longer and to put that money into a savings account, they could just have anything they wanted eventually.

00:37:25:01 - Zoe Swayne: Okay.

00:37:27:20 - Zoe Swayne: They listen to the salesmen or have to do things because their peers do it. And. You have to. Think for yourself and. Not be influenced so much by what other people do.

00:37:50:20 - Unknown Interviewer: And you see that as a change among people these days are more influenced younger people.

00:37:56:18 - Zoe Swayne: I think so.

00:38:00:07 - Unknown Interviewer: do you feel your own sons, where are they in this.

00:38:05:10 - Zoe Swayne: Well it depends somewhat upon their wives and the way they have been trained. And there are some of those that set goals and say, this is what we want, and this is what we have to do to get what we want. Okay. And others that say, well that only cost so much, I want that in a way because this depends largely upon it takes two people to, to manage this.

00:38:39:22 - Zoe Swayne: And. A man can’t do it if his wife spends everything he earns.

00:38:47:15 - Unknown Interviewer: So it’s the wife has a great influence on them.

00:38:50:17 - Zoe Swayne: Definitely. A long time ago before we were married I, I had a mormon friend who was telling me some of the Mormon. Philosophy in, in one of their books that he had, a quote from Victor Hugo to the effect that marriage is like the flight of a bird. each one is a wing. And so if the wings don’t work together, the marriage doesn’t go.

00:39:26:25 - Zoe Swayne: So we’ve always called each other the other wing.

00:39:30:15 - Unknown Interviewer: Okay. Interesting,

00:39:34:28 - Zoe Swayne: And if you don’t work together, it just doesn’t work. I was thinking when this, It didn’t yet last night. And the little pioneer woman was like. There she was there the week. And I think that’s what a lot of young people today, in years. I thought of that when the girl was talking about the divorce.

00:40:02:10 - Unknown Interviewer: The one, the last one. Sarah Adams how did you feel about that one.

00:40:09:08 - Zoe Swayne: I felt sad that two because it was so common today. It just happens all the time because the two people. Don’t see beyond their selfish feelings. You can’t build anything unselfish cuz.

00:40:38:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Each one has to give a little more.

00:40:39:21 - Zoe Swayne: Each one has to care enough to help others. Each one has to to work with the other one. It means discipline and giving up of some of your whims. But you cannot go on on wheels and build anything. You’ve got to give up a little bit and each one has to give up a little bit. And I think that’s what’s happening so much with young people who.

00:41:13:11 - Zoe Swayne: Want to be themselves. They, you want to be yourself or you’re yourself no matter what you do.

00:41:21:01 - Unknown Interviewer: Do you feel like in the years you were growing up, women were expected to give a little more? Or was it equal then?

00:41:30:13 - Zoe Swayne: Yeah, but mother always said, if you give a man an inch, you’ll take a mile.

00:41:38:01 - Unknown Interviewer: So more, what she’s saying more responsibility. Rested on the woman ultimately.

00:41:44:04 - Zoe Swayne: Dealt with other physical things. So?

00:41:52:15 - Zoe Swayne: I think a woman has to be.

00:41:59:17 - Zoe Swayne: Doing a good job of being alive. Because a person who she has to have perception. And. A sense of direction and worth. She has to be able to see where her husband is going and what he needs. And the whole direction of the family life. And I can’t think of any word better than. Perception.

00:42:47:14 - Zoe Swayne: It takes both of them working together.

00:42:52:26 - Zoe Swayne: But the wife has her own particular.

00:43:02:09 - Zoe Swayne: Place to feel can’t be done by anybody else.

00:43:19:12 - Zoe Swayne: She’s the. She undergirds her husband. And yet, at the same time, she guides him.

00:43:31:22 - Zoe Swayne: In the same. And if she’s a successful wife, she manages him without his knowing that he’s being managed. And it’s his wife. She gets him going in the right way.

00:43:50:21 - Unknown Interviewer: But if it’s obtrusive

00:43:53:28 - Zoe Swayne: And it becomes nagging and causes problems. But I’ve known women who were so skilled at it and had an idea of where things were going and put in an appreciation of her husband’s values, appreciation of her husband’s abilities, and also weaknesses that she could steer clear of, of pitfalls and guide.

00:44:21:04 - Unknown Interviewer: Them without it, without first being aware of its right. I think I understand.

00:44:31:20 - Zoe Swayne: I’m not that too subtle. But we have, we work it out ourselves.

00:44:43:09 - Unknown Interviewer: Do you, discuss decisions? major purchases?

00:44:49:16 - Zoe Swayne: Oh, yes. Definitely. we are in the process of getting the electric furnace installed, and there’s been much discussion. Oh, yes. We always discuss our major. Problems. And just.

00:45:04:18 - Unknown Interviewer: What if if you see him making what you see is the wrong decision, how would you, how would you go about dealing with that.

00:45:13:05 - Zoe Swayne: Direct thing. So just look here. Let’s see. Let’s get all the facts. Let’s see what.

00:45:20:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Very rational consideration we can have.

00:45:26:04 - Zoe Swayne: But he the likewise we had done two cruises which were wonderful. And naturally I would want to go buy this and this. Here he was at my elbow. What do you want for what are you going to do that when you get at home? You know he’s always behind me saying, cut out the foolish spending.

00:45:50:02 - Unknown Interviewer: This is inhibit your enjoyment.

00:45:51:27 - Zoe Swayne: Yes.

00:45:54:06 - Zoe Swayne: Definitely. But then we get home and, and, wonder why it’s it, but. So I can see, he could see himself having to pack all that stuff and carry it. And it wasn’t to his liking.

00:46:10:24 - Unknown Interviewer: And then we had, Have you ever regretted not buying something that you thought.

00:46:18:16 - Zoe Swayne: I can’t think of anything that I really regret.

00:46:20:26 - Unknown Interviewer: At the time you wanted to.

00:46:22:19 - Zoe Swayne: Oh yes. There was one in Malta, I wanted a little Maltese cross and no other Maltese cross would mean anything unless it were bought there at Malta. But under the circumstances there were dozens of people crowding into this little narrow shop with limited time, and I just didn’t get it.

00:46:45:00 - Zoe Swayne: That was one thing.

00:46:46:05 - Unknown Interviewer: That’s one of your regrets. And it wasn’t no husband talking you out of it. All right. Have you. You’ve never had to be the support of the family any time. Did you ever worry about what to do if something happened to your husband?

00:47:05:20 - Zoe Swayne: No, I don’t the point of that. But these, by this time used is provisions made for things like that.

00:47:14:17 - Unknown Interviewer: I guess I was, referring to when the children were small. Was that over?

00:47:19:11 - Zoe Swayne: Well, I always thought I could teach.

00:47:21:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Yes. Yes, you had that had had that experience. And remember that you could.

00:47:27:10 - Zoe Swayne: at this time I’m too old, I just. Well.

00:47:30:14 - Unknown Interviewer: Do have other, provisions. You. Yeah.

00:47:34:17 - Zoe Swayne: Small children make me tired. And I’m. to but to do that.

00:47:44:08 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh, I was thinking, you know, when, when your children were small.

00:47:47:25 - Zoe Swayne: I could have you were.

00:47:48:25 - Unknown Interviewer: Vulnerable at.

00:47:49:21 - Zoe Swayne: School.

00:47:50:20 - Unknown Interviewer: Some women are vulnerable. And unless they’ve had this training or something, they feel they can fall back on. But you had that in. All right. We talked about community and church activities. if a young woman were starting out to go into the life that you’ve lived, what would pair her best for that?

00:48:14:06 - Zoe Swayne: You were going from a farm life or life and, well.

00:48:17:29 - Unknown Interviewer: I’m going to relate this to your life since you were experience, how would the things your life, as it has turned out? What are the assets? And,

00:48:59:03 - Zoe Swayne: I would think, young women who. Would come from the farm into a small town. A community built to where there were different levels of social development or social good. This is the word I want to use. Different levels of society, culture. Subcultures are work.

00:49:35:16 - Zoe Swayne: Decide first what you want to be or do. And if you decide that you want to be on a little higher, playing. Train yourself.

00:49:55:13 - Zoe Swayne: Take advantage of every educational opportunity and get in and help with community activities. Do things to to make the place a better place to live in. Make use of your time in a constructive way.

00:50:27:17 - Zoe Swayne: Help with church work.

00:50:33:05 - Zoe Swayne: Anything that you can find to to make it a better place. I would think. Oh.

00:50:41:28 - Unknown Interviewer: Just as the doorbell rang, you were talking about how a woman needs to make up her mind, what she wants to be, and not to be concerned with what other people could you, say? because I didn’t get that on tape. And I thought that was very.

00:51:03:29 - Zoe Swayne: Real. I. Could have picked it out in the spur of the moment. But it seems to me that everyone who’s seeking identity for herself. What kind of person am I? Who am I should determine? This is the kind of person I want to be and not be concerned too much with what other people say about you, or strive striving to keep up with the Joneses or going into the or whatever it is the thing, but to get yourself a goal and work towards that goal.

00:51:47:13 - Zoe Swayne: Let it be a worthy one rather than I’ll do this because everybody else is doing it.

00:51:58:29 - Unknown Interviewer: suppose a woman feels as though she wants to do something that’s counter to what other women in her group are doing. She might, they might not see her.

00:52:12:10 - Zoe Swayne: Well, it takes a great deal of strength of character if she knows it’s a good thing. And it’s something that needs to be done. And she has the moral and mental courage to do it, but that’s what she should do. But it takes a great deal of strength of character to go against it.

00:52:38:11 - Unknown Interviewer: Like, I’m sure there were women, your contemporaries, who spent most of the time at home and saw a very narrow role. And you saw, a role outside of the community was as important as being simply the housewife and mother.

00:52:55:08 - Zoe Swayne: I was not a Good Housekeeping, but.

00:52:57:24 - Unknown Interviewer: And did that bother you sometimes.

00:53:00:22 - Zoe Swayne: Look, I think it was going.

00:53:06:05 - Unknown Interviewer: But it was more,

00:53:08:13 - Zoe Swayne: I would much rather go do some something in the community that to keep her house. But I am sure I didn’t neglect my children. They were fed and clothed and loved and and guided as much as they would take.

00:53:26:00 - Unknown Interviewer: How how did the the boys decide what vocation they went into, for instance?

00:53:31:27 - Zoe Swayne: Well, the older men tried this, that and everything and and finally decided that he would be a lawyer. The second one, you know, he loved to work with animals and decided that that was that he would be a veterinarian. He, by taking tests in, aptitude tests at the university before they went into the university, they decided that he was he had certain qualities that wouldn’t make him, that he would have a hard time or something wasn’t quite desirable for, position, but he would be alright as a veterinarian.

00:54:17:02 - Zoe Swayne: So that’s where he is.

00:54:18:24 - Unknown Interviewer: Okay.

00:54:19:12 - Zoe Swayne: The third boy is in. Because a great deal of many abilities, he could go many ways. And for a while he was in the Peace Corps and he went to college again. And he finally decided, since he had to be something that he would try being a lawyer, at least in his last two. But the other one, the younger one, all his life, he would lie in front of the polygraph and then and he would thump, thump, thump, thump, thump with the beat of the music.

00:55:00:13 - Zoe Swayne: Said he wanted to be a musician. Well, he if you did get through, high school playing in the band, he was a drummer. And when he got through, with high school, he and a friend took a trip back to Michigan, and they took pictures of the things that interested them. And he took pictures of all the machines, oil wells.

00:55:23:26 - Zoe Swayne: You know, here’s this thing going this way, this way, this way, this way. And so his tests showed he would have high aptitude in mechanical engineering. And so that’s what he took in college. And he went to and he worked for a number of years in Pratt Whitney in Florida. And then he had this job in the Ramco.

00:55:45:19 - Zoe Swayne: And now he’s over in Saudi Arabia, getting these two. Turbines that pump the water up in the well to lift, and they pump water into the whales to lift the oil out. And I can imagine that all of his drumming in his pumping is just tells him that the machines are working right.

00:56:11:00 - Unknown Interviewer: And he can recognize them.

00:56:13:02 - Zoe Swayne: In a minute.

00:56:15:18 - Unknown Interviewer: so it sounds like your husband and you left it up to the to your sons to make their own decisions.

00:56:21:13 - Zoe Swayne: Well, and as much as possible, me, I don’t see how you can say you’ve got to do this or that, except that if you want to do this or that, you’ve got to do certain things to do that.

00:56:37:00 - Unknown Interviewer: So you had them look at alternatives rationally assess their abilities, their resources.

00:56:45:08 - Zoe Swayne: You know as much as possible.

00:56:48:08 - Unknown Interviewer: And they tried out different things and came back and started over again.

00:56:54:16 - Zoe Swayne: They would say I want to do this. Well okay. If you want to do that you’ve got to do you have to do certain things in order to get yourself out there. But for the younger one, he knew what he wanted to do and he didn’t. He was grateful for the times when we made him stay home and get his lessons before he went playing around.

00:57:18:00 - Zoe Swayne: So because it took a great deal of discipline to do these things.

00:57:22:01 - Unknown Interviewer: And he. Did you and your husband recognized the value of discipline?

00:57:28:13 - Zoe Swayne: Absolutely. You could be anything or do anything without, just good self-discipline.

00:57:38:09 - Unknown Interviewer: you had four children. You had two early and two later. how did most women in those days manage, do their family planning go?

00:57:51:08 - Zoe Swayne: I don’t know, and an hour or two later was were accidental. So I think. But I would never advise anybody to have two families like that because you have preschoolers and teenagers at the same time, and each of them need their parents guidance and concentration on their problems, and they are at the same. And it’s just a terrible state of affairs.

00:58:17:21 - Unknown Interviewer: You felt torn in two directions.

00:58:19:14 - Zoe Swayne: Absolutely. Neither one of them got what they should have. And really, it wasn’t so much the parents involvement in community affairs as it was the different interests of the children. The teenagers would have to be taken to games, and the little ones were too little to do this, and it was not an easy thing to live through. I got a friend who was in the same situation, and it was quite time.

00:58:55:06 - Unknown Interviewer: one of the big changes of taking place in the from the time you were first married, until the present time, that women are able to meet to plan their families. what do you think about that?

00:59:07:17 - Zoe Swayne: I think it’s very.

00:59:09:25 - Unknown Interviewer: I’m sure you’ve observed people that appeared to more children.

00:59:13:03 - Zoe Swayne: But you understand it. they said when we get through college we will have children, we will have two children. And so far they have had two children. Okay. They, they mix, they set goals. They have plans is.

00:59:27:18 - Unknown Interviewer: Evidence of responsibility. you were telling me a story about how you happened to come to Idaho in the covered wagon. Yes.

00:59:40:29 - Zoe Swayne: That was in 1919, when I was 13 years old and just finished the eighth grade. And and at the end of the First World War, my father took a trip for about six weeks investigating different places where he thought he could find a home for us, make schooling easier for the children. He finally found this place in southern Idaho on Camas County, which was just opening up as a sort of boom after the war, and the places were being sold as Wheat Ridge.

01:00:25:01 - Zoe Swayne: Camas County is about a mile in elevation. It is in, a lake bed with high mountains on one side and lower foothills on the other. The wind blows across it all the time was so different from curlew, Washington, where we lived, which is very similar to this country. And, because when he was a young boy, these people had made, several journeys across from Kansas to Oregon.

01:01:00:27 - Zoe Swayne: They would go to Oregon and buy horses and trail them all the way back to Kansas to be used in the wheat fields. And. He wanted us to have this experience of going by covered wagon. So he shipped household goods by three in a freight car, and he fixed up a big, covered wagon like a Conestoga bus that was on the number wagon with a bed in the back.

01:01:38:10 - Zoe Swayne: And camping gear. It was pulled by four horses, and we had two little calls that were too young to travel that way. So we made a crate in the back that were fastened on the reach of the wagon. It had the back of the crate, had a door that folded down like a little ramp. And before the journey was over, the little colts knew just what to do.

01:02:08:11 - Zoe Swayne: They go up, up into their little cage and people passing by would just stand there, stare with gaping mouths at those little colts riding behind. Then we had, this what we call the heck, which was a smaller. Wagon which was covered on top. And my sister and I slept in this. Yeah. And mother, of course, being separated from the sheep.

01:02:36:05 - Zoe Swayne: Pull that thing tight at night, almost breathless in there in the summertime. We objected, but she said she wasn’t going to have any man snooping around. So there we were, locked in. Which was all right for a while. We went down, down, through. the Central Valley to the Columbia River. And they had to go across in the ferry.

01:03:11:26 - Zoe Swayne: So the mother of one of these little colts was left behind on the shore, and she was just a little Indian pony. She swam the Columbia whole mile across. We we were just so distressed until she got across safely. But there she.

01:03:30:02 - Unknown Interviewer: Broke loose and.

01:03:31:03 - Zoe Swayne: Well, she closed in. She she didn’t stay back with the other horses. They had to make more than one trip. But she wasn’t about to have her coat go away from her. So she swam that whole big mile of Columbia River, and she was a wonderful little horse. And me and went down to the out of the mountains, to the Big Bend country and came out on this great little stretch of wheat fields.

01:04:03:10 - Zoe Swayne: And I was frightened. It was a terrifying thing to come out of, of security and see this little land stretching out. I wanted to lie down and hang on to the grass for fear of falling old, falling off the earth. It gave me that feeling. And then we went on down through washed up news. I saw the first Appaloosa horse in the.

01:04:30:25 - Zoe Swayne: We’re working in the field.

01:04:42:16 - Zoe Swayne: The lion’s bearing. And finally got to Walla Walla Walla Walla Walla camp to file the. The great problem of the time was finding horse food. Be sure to care for the place where the horses would have food. It was at a time when not everybody traveled by car. There were just. There were few cars on the road, and once in a while you would see another covered wagon.

01:05:18:11 - Zoe Swayne: So it was a period of transition. We were not too much objects of curiosity, but it was getting harder and harder to find food for the horses. On good days, I think about the most we ever made was 30 miles a day and in Walla Walla we stayed a while and my brother across the fence were some cows.

01:05:43:22 - Zoe Swayne: He was about ten years old. He slipped in and took his little 5 pound, lard field and milked this spill full of milk and brought it. And he was so proud of himself. We bring him milk for supper, and my father said, son, don’t ever do that. Any more, that stealing. And he felt so deflated. But it was that to this day, that night we had strawberries and and my sister ate too many and we were locked in this little thing, and she went right in my face.

01:06:17:02 - Zoe Swayne: I can whoop. So put it around and and then we going on from all of our down to, into Oregon to Grand Valley State there family and on over to Huntington two opposite on the snake River, opposite reason. And there we saw Idaho for the first time. It was,

01:06:50:11 - Zoe Swayne: Not, the wooded mountains, but they were bare cliffs and sand, sandy looking place. And the little boy that was with us had been expecting something else. And he says, Where’s Idaho, Leo? Free Idaho? And then we went on through Boise and went going down the main street of Boise. The big wagon was in front and the little one behind, and happy was one of the horses.

01:07:28:29 - Zoe Swayne: We went down Main Street back to where the museum or why he hotel is, or the Idaho Falls and a jacket jack hammer burst loose and happy stood on his feet, bound feet beaten all the air with a better, wonderful runaway. If it hadn’t been it, he was hemmed in and he couldn’t run. So whenever I go down the street of Boise, I have, black horse ghosts with me back then we went, across the desert.

01:08:06:06 - Zoe Swayne: We didn’t go to Mountain Bottom. We went across a place that was called Regina and cut across to the hills that went up into the prairie, too. I told you, road and got to the prairie another night. And mother cried when we saw the new home that we had. And it was just a one room homesteaders shared, made it straight up and down boards with just little slats to hold the interstices and.

01:08:49:26 - Zoe Swayne: Kept all the home we had. But it was like everybody else’s at the time. Just goes to the shack and the wind blew all the time. The horses were nervous. Everybody felt on edge because it was weird. We were not used to it. I don’t think the horse did get quite used to. The winters were cold and hard and down.

01:09:14:20 - Zoe Swayne: Subzero only lasted a long time. The snow was deep and.

01:09:24:11 - Zoe Swayne: It took us a long time to find the beauty in Idaho. But. But there is beauty down. The colors and different amethyst in the sunset. And always changing colors.

01:09:40:22 - Unknown Interviewer: But how did your mother make the adjustment?

01:09:44:07 - Zoe Swayne: Well, there was it was something she had to do and so she did it. But, but she cried when we went to curlew because here we lived in a log house and she found a squirrel’s nest in it and it had big bugs in it. So she just tore the place to pieces and we had to paint the logs with kerosene and all that kind of thing.

01:10:07:13 - Zoe Swayne: So she cried about that. She cried when we lived. She cried when we got to the famous prairie. But I don’t think she cried when she left there. I don’t think she did. they lived there for quite a number of years, and then they finally moved to the Grand on Down, where my father lived a long time ago.

01:10:29:21 - Zoe Swayne: And they had a nice home there. So they they had a happy place to spend in the later years.

01:10:37:05 - Unknown Interviewer: Did she complain about, conditions or situations?

01:10:43:12 - Zoe Swayne: Well, she wasn’t really a complainer, but she let everybody know what she felt. She scolded this quite a bit in those days, but she worked so hard that I can see now why. We didn’t move fast enough to make things. Home like she wanted.

01:11:10:24 - Unknown Interviewer: who had made the decisions. All these moves move Sidney. Had she participated more.

01:11:18:07 - Zoe Swayne: Course. they talk things over always. They talk things over. But my father was the one who went and explored the place first and then painted the little picture for her, decided that he could make things go a little better. There. And the place turned out to be Mary.

01:11:45:06 - Zoe Swayne: Well it yielded beautifully. It was subject to freezes and some years there would be fine crops and other years and low prices. In other years there would be lower or less crop and maybe the prices would be a little better. But for years we would borrow money in the spring to buy the wheat seed and put the crop in and, and then you’d pay it off and the crop was harvested and.

01:12:26:05 - Unknown Interviewer: What kind of recreation did you have as a child? You did you have time for recreation.

01:12:32:14 - Zoe Swayne: To play as a as a child. Where in curlew or down there? I was 13 years old. in, in Idaho.

01:12:42:05 - Unknown Interviewer: Did the family do things together?

01:12:45:09 - Zoe Swayne: We’d never had the occasion. when I was small child, my parents would play with play baseball or something like that, or we’d run, races and always we’d go to the 4th of July picnics, and my father would ride this little horse and beat all the boys with their other horses, even though it was a big deal.

01:13:10:27 - Zoe Swayne: We moved to New York around.

01:13:13:06 - Unknown Interviewer: These were horse races.

01:13:16:15 - Zoe Swayne: So we had fun, we had picnics, hobbies like that.

01:13:21:27 - Unknown Interviewer: So it was hard work for parents and children. You you had your chores to do and.

01:13:28:16 - Zoe Swayne: And help and, you had to work. I worked in the field floor and my sister worked in the house. And I go from one summer down on the prairie. The summer I was 18, ready to go to college. My father hurt his hand and he couldn’t drive the two on the combine. So I drove the combine all summer long, but I can’t remember.

01:13:53:05 - Zoe Swayne: Father had 6 or 8 horses to drive, but. And my brother, who was 15, did the swallowing of the sacks. My my father, who was in his hand, was terribly bruised and and and he couldn’t do a thing that he would supervise. He was with us wherever we were telling us what to do. And that summer, my hands were so strong.

01:14:20:28 - Zoe Swayne: I went to the normal school, would shake hands with the boy. I could just make him. Williams. Come down on his knees. And I thought that was funny. But then that’s no way to get a boyfriend.

01:14:35:01 - Zoe Swayne: You just don’t do that and get popular with boys.

01:14:40:05 - Unknown Interviewer: Was there a reason why your sister worked in the house more and you were outside?

01:14:44:24 - Zoe Swayne: I was older, I was four years older than she. And I preferred it. Were you the.

01:14:51:15 - Unknown Interviewer: Oldest.

01:14:53:19 - Unknown Interviewer: You preferred it.

01:14:54:28 - Zoe Swayne: Sure. That’s more fun out there driving the course that day in the house. You did it.

01:15:05:29 - Unknown Interviewer: You would say you’re getting out of community activities. Would you want to do something else with your time. Now you mentioned riding.

01:15:13:05 - Zoe Swayne: I don’t have the energy to, to that. It takes two to do these things. And I think younger people should and I want to if I can just make myself good at it, do some writing like this. And, and and do more or you.

01:15:34:12 - Unknown Interviewer: your husband continues with his work. informally. Oh. Would you rather he spent more time at home or.

01:15:45:26 - Zoe Swayne: All right. Well, I’d like to have him have a flexible. That’s good. So that if he needs to or wants to that he doesn’t feel pushed, that he has to go back.

01:15:59:08 - Unknown Interviewer: But you manage that now or.

01:16:02:13 - Zoe Swayne: Well John comes down once a week. And he was an apprentice this summer and he took it down from the office room. But it’s good for him to have a little place to go and too tired physically to work here. He goes up and restores it. But to have a man following you around and all the time you just talk to him really once in a while, you know.

01:16:33:12 - Unknown Interviewer: that is a problem for some retired people.

01:16:36:28 - Zoe Swayne: They don’t know what to do with themselves. He goes to the office.

01:16:41:12 - Unknown Interviewer: Does he, have other hobbies or anything he plans to do.

01:16:46:06 - Zoe Swayne: Well he, he has this place, he’s planted trees and it, he, he loves to go out and see his roots of his neighbor. And he’s taken a peek into when we went on these cruises he started planting. And he loves that. He just goes in there and paints and sings. And it’s a wonderful time because he put it back several years ago, and he can’t do that because he’s got to be quiet.

01:17:24:01 - Zoe Swayne: It’s good for him. Now.

01:17:25:12 - Unknown Interviewer: Do you expect your son to come here and take over the business.

01:17:29:08 - Zoe Swayne: The law practice hanging on for that is John wants to when he gets to right, he wants to have a place.

01:17:36:22 - Unknown Interviewer: That would be the ideal to have happen. But you’re leaving it up to your son to make that final decision. You watch TV crews, you’re in your house. Oh you have some favorite shows.

01:17:50:28 - Zoe Swayne: The news crew Gary Moore’s to tell the truth. And then the one that follows the. Bob Barker just for fun. But there some that you turn off immediately from the today show. I watch him and then the public broadcasting station.

01:18:15:24 - Unknown Interviewer: We try to.

01:18:16:12 - Zoe Swayne: Catch good shows all the those.

01:18:21:23 - Unknown Interviewer: You take magazines. What are some.

01:18:24:26 - Zoe Swayne: Where was the National Geographic from the American Heritage Saturday Review of Literature and.

01:18:38:04 - Zoe Swayne: American artist magazine.

01:18:50:26 - Zoe Swayne: we get the National Observer.

01:18:58:29 - Zoe Swayne: Submissions a little bit.

01:19:06:04 - Zoe Swayne: But I help the National Geographic magazine ever since I started teaching school.

01:19:11:26 - Unknown Interviewer: Would you like to travel more?

01:19:13:18 - Zoe Swayne: Yes.

01:19:15:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Would you like you and your husband to take more trips afield?

01:19:19:07 - Zoe Swayne: well, yes, but we have his mother and my mother are down here in this year. And we feel that we shouldn’t go too far too long.

01:19:32:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Does he like to travel.

01:19:35:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Oh it’s something you can plan to do in the future.

01:19:38:23 - Zoe Swayne: We went to the Mediterranean one time and the next time we were to Iceland and. And do you always Sweden and Denmark. We’ve been got into Leningrad, Russia. Germany.

01:19:55:02 - Unknown Interviewer: Had some very interesting. There are a lot of other questions I would like to ask, but at this time I guess I would like to ask if you’d like to add anything. in general, about what we’ve talked about, maybe talk about changes, differences in the way people live now as compared to.

01:20:18:03 - Zoe Swayne: What you grew up.

01:20:19:10 - Unknown Interviewer: Here.

01:20:28:25 - Zoe Swayne: Something that we thought would happen on the spur of the moment. Oh, come on.

01:20:42:11 - Unknown Interviewer: Hi. Oh.

01:20:44:09 - Zoe Swayne: So, this is Isabel Miller. How are you?

01:20:46:21 - Unknown Interviewer: That you do.

01:20:47:21 - Zoe Swayne: And cooking for Bush.

01:20:50:01 - Unknown Interviewer: You, Carol. Carol.

01:20:52:16 - Zoe Swayne: Gert Berg, I do.

01:20:55:13 - Unknown Interviewer: Very nice.

01:20:56:00 - Speaker 5: Really? Haven’t quite a session I.

01:20:57:18 - Unknown Interviewer: Yes, yes, we’ve had very interesting talk here.

01:21:05:09 - Zoe Swayne: But have you been doing well?

01:21:07:25 - Speaker 5: Think calling. They’ll have you back to where? They say the the painter.

01:21:16:24 - Speaker 4: And.

01:21:18:25 - Speaker 5: All that sort of thing.

01:21:20:27 - Zoe Swayne: We’re just about to finish up.

01:21:23:00 - Speaker 5: Okay.

01:21:27:04 - Speaker 5: Take your car down. Yes. Mr.. Oh.

01:21:31:05 - Zoe Swayne: Well, I was following directions.

01:21:35:06 - Speaker 5: Oh.

01:21:36:01 - Zoe Swayne: Do you need to have a move?

01:21:38:00 - Unknown Interviewer: Move it.

01:21:40:05 - Speaker 5: No, I just happened to use this place up there. Right. Well, I wanted to go up this,

01:21:48:27 - Unknown Interviewer: Well, we’re very glad to meet you.

01:21:51:15 - Speaker 5: Well, that’s quite a surprise to me, too. As well as being very glad to meet you. Thank you.

01:21:58:19 - Zoe Swayne: So your question was, how do the homes today compare with those of the parents?

01:22:05:07 - Unknown Interviewer: Yes.

01:22:06:01 - Zoe Swayne: The thing I see happening is the home is going to work, and the marriage is going to be successful is that the father is going to have to continue to carry his end of the. Conversation. He’s going to have to be a partner, and they’re going to have to work together more and where they’re going to be the lord of the manor and be going to their home is in the in our.

01:22:47:04 - Zoe Swayne: When I was young, they were men. I think they still are. They consider themselves the Lord of everything, and everybody waits on them and it won’t work. Now when specially two people have to work together to make the living.

01:23:03:25 - Unknown Interviewer: With the increased expenses, you know.

01:23:05:21 - Zoe Swayne: So it’s almost a necessary that the both of them work. Well if they both work, I think the husband should carry his part of the housework and the both of them work together at the job. And I see no reason why it can’t work in a beautiful way. That way. But if he is not going to cooperate the women can’t do it all later.

01:23:31:10 - Zoe Swayne: Likewise if the woman is going to assume the responsibility he can’t handle it.

01:23:38:15 - Unknown Interviewer: It’s a two way thing. So instead of having rigid sex roles like we used to have. But you think that’s possible that their lives could be fuller by having more variety.

01:23:51:12 - Zoe Swayne: Because there’s no reason this is not woman’s work. It’s our work. You’re and and if the man has something to do while the women can help him, it works both ways. And I think that could be a wonderful thing.

01:24:12:11 - Unknown Interviewer: Would you like to work more for money? You did volunteer work. Plenty. Oh but would it have been more rewarding for you personally to work for money.

01:24:28:16 - Zoe Swayne: I don’t I didn’t.

01:24:32:10 - Unknown Interviewer: Need it, I didn’t.

01:24:33:12 - Zoe Swayne: Need it. And I worked for the sheer love of seeing something accomplish that I ought to be done. But having a little extra money now and then is is fun to have.

01:24:49:20 - Unknown Interviewer: Would you, if you had more to say. But the decisions, how it was then you wouldn’t have felt any different. It would have been family’s money, whoever made it.

01:25:00:02 - Zoe Swayne: Well probably now I have the running of this little trailer down at the foot of the hill that I’m on is mine. And so, I can spend that pretty well.

01:25:10:15 - Unknown Interviewer: For, in effect, you’re you’re in money.

01:25:15:16 - Zoe Swayne: But he doesn’t if I want to spend it for, a new dress, there’s no great argument about that. Or if I want to spend it for books, I buy books, books, books. And there’s no, you know, argument about it. Only if I spend two minutes.

01:25:37:21 - Unknown Interviewer: But.

01:25:40:14 - Zoe Swayne: To full the household things out of the. And then he has his money to do what he wants with the bigger things. But we talk together about these things so. But it has been more fun and I’ve appreciated having that money for my own spending without having to ask. But it always used to annoy him to be asked for money.

01:26:08:21 - Zoe Swayne: Is it. He was always being deemed for money.

01:26:12:20 - Zoe Swayne: And I think, I think it must be an important thing for the younger people.

01:26:20:25 - Unknown Interviewer: You know for the, for the money. And if there was a little inhibition on your part knowing that it irritated him to be asked you, don’t you think twice before you ask. Certainly you didn’t a lot say plan out your budget when you had so much. There’s so much little things.

01:26:43:28 - Zoe Swayne: Not too much that we did.

01:26:45:25 - Unknown Interviewer: That hadn’t when that wasn’t true.

01:26:47:11 - Zoe Swayne: If we had to have groceries we bought and put groceries we needed that. We were careful to to be reasonable.

01:26:55:10 - Unknown Interviewer: You knew your limit and kept in mind, and it wasn’t exactly put down on paper, but you were aware of what the resources.

01:27:03:01 - Zoe Swayne: Were.

01:27:03:21 - Unknown Interviewer: And kept within that area, and you didn’t buy anything on credit.

01:27:09:14 - Zoe Swayne: Well, the things that we bought on credit, we we soon got got them paid off as fast as possible. And the longer we’ve lived. What is it? It seems to earn the money first.

01:27:28:19 - Unknown Interviewer: Well, as much as I’d like to go on talking, I believe we’d better, close off their,