Millie (Martha) Burroughs Interview Audio [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s the problem with all the information straight today, February 14th, 1976, Valentine’s Day. Yes. And we’re in Lewiston. And the interviewee is Lily Brown. No milk? No. I’m sorry, I0I had I okay, everyone and that’s actually Martha by legal name is over Martha. And I’m very Martha. And then they discover there were too many Martha. It was confusing in the family was.

00:00:32:08 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And they put them they ordered and to call me by, but they never put her my birth certificate. Much trouble. And I ask for that. Martha isn’t me. I was never called Massachusetts. And it’s not till I have to get birth certificates. And then they wonder what’s going on. And I wasn’t Martha is perfectly good name. It’s not me.

00:00:53:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It is that I. I object to too much grammar. Let’s say, I guess the only other identification we need to say is that the interviewer is Kathy Noble. And now we can get on with. And Shelley and I ugly. And there you go. Yeah, I’m. I entered. All right, I mind it. I have to see it. yeah.

00:01:16:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: People that usually see it then don’t they go Nagel or anything pronounced or either. Let’s see. You were born in Lebanon, Ohio in January 31st, 1899. I’m just a year older than the century. Except for January, right? Yeah. And your maiden name is from crumbly. It’s an Anglo-Saxon. Bramley. Yeah, I am German. Yes. that’s probably too anglicized from problem to change it from.

00:01:52:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, I don’t know that I. Yeah I the lunch is that right. But I were German. And how do I pronounce this? the first place you were in Idaho? We are we I’ve I’ve never known. We call it. We we first. Okay. Yeah. Loopy. Yes. And you came to Idaho from all sorts of places here first.

00:02:20:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Was it? Ohio was the last place I was the last place you are? Capacity. Ohio. Before that, that Yellow Springs, you were in Canada, Massachusetts. And you came out here to rehab in 39 and 39 by car. You were then you were already married. When you get out and you you came with my husband, the two kids and this friend of ours, Mary Mercer, who didn’t have a job.

00:02:53:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And she was this was, oh, I see, this would be during the depression. This was right after the depression. We starved out in Alberta during the depression and went back to Ohio, where my father had a farm. You could at least raise a car. That’s what. That’s what we hear so often when people were talking about, they went back to their parents.

00:03:11:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, well, in Alberta you could not raise a garden on way or nothing. But, girl, what were you doing up now? And this. You were married then? Yes. the babies were born in Alberta. Ever. I want to get into this, but let’s get into it. On this particular sheet. now, your mother’s family. Tell me what your mother’s maiden name was.

00:03:37:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Iris. Yes. What kind of a name is that? That’s English. I think we’re mostly English and Scotch Irish on my mother’s side. Tracy French. You can trace it. That’s pretty well, if you can trace it back and trace all of them back before the revolution. Let’s say the Irish just were Quakers, and they were all tallow during the revolution.

00:04:03:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Didn’t believe in war, but he made our shoes in Portugal for the army. Is that right? How did he justify that? Oh, well, what we can accommodate, that’s conscience, you know. That’s true. That’s true. Well, let’s say you say your boy was born in the late 1860s. I know she was several years younger than my father, and I know he was born in 1863, because he was born in the middle of civil war, literally both ways.

00:04:35:14 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, here comes. Okay. Let’s see. your mom, we said, was born about late 1860s in Ohio. Yeah. That’s right. Had a farm. And maybe it’s a farm. Her parents? Yes. Oh, gosh. And, and she and your father married when she was almost 30. She married to get away from, She wasn’t allowed to take a job.

00:05:07:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: My grandfather had the bright idea of a job should be for women who needed them. And he could support her. So she had no right to a job. Well, this would have been the late 1890s. That she. Yes. And. Amy had been married a little more than a year before I was born in 1837. So that’s right. I can get some connect wells or retinal.

00:05:32:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s that. well, let’s see here the. Oh, she did go to normal school, which educated from normal school like a of education. So that was about her job. That was pretty. It seemed to me it might be unusual for a woman to run to school. That’s how it was. But they didn’t want to do anything with it.

00:05:52:19 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. How did she ever talk to you about how she felt about that later? She resented it very much. But my grandmother was one of these tiny women about my size were. But I kind of the world powers and weakness. and she used it, how she used against, over your mother or her mother. Oh. Her husband.

00:06:17:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: He died when I was 11. I really didn’t know him. But she didn’t succeed nominating him. He suffered, withdrew. But I understand. I don’t know, just, I wish I did. Now, this was your grandfather. My grandfather? Yes. Well. But after after he died, my grandmother came to live with us, and she dominated my mother. Oh, she still would after she was married.

00:06:42:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And every what the government consented to the marriage. In case. My parents would come back and spend some time that my father was a teacher. He had summer vacations. What was it? was it that important at that time that that there be consent? By that time, she was it was fair. So she was in her late 20s.

00:07:05:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But in that family, I don’t know about that time. Okay. Oh, was. Let’s see now, your father, then his name, John Jackson. Jackson was a similar name. It sounds so. And you were saying he was born in in the middle of the Civil War? Both ways. In the location? Oh, yes, in the mountains in eastern Tennessee.

00:07:31:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s Appalachian. Now. And my grandfather went to, Or my grandmother kept that family together. He was a fifth child. The Union soldiers would come down and forage very hungry, and then the Confederates would drive with us and they’d take anything with the Union soldiers left. They were hungry, too. So they were set upon from both. Yes. And from the other side.

00:07:55:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Was there was a bushwhackers who didn’t want to join either side. You come down up the hills hungry, and she managed to kick five children alive. Well that she she must have been a farmer just now. Your father was just born at that time, so she probably doesn’t know. He doesn’t have any recollection of that. That’s just a family memories handed down to him, I have.

00:08:18:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, here’s one. Thank you. From all over the place. Did you run? Did you meet his mother? Yeah. No. They both died long before I was born. Oh, let’s see now. So. Oh, this is. Oh, yeah. This is father, not your husband. Yeah. My father’s family was a German branch, but I’m not sure. But my mother was English or Dutch.

00:08:42:03 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Irish, I think my grandmother’s, Which matters. Yeah, but they were the probably the ones that changed the name or before that. Changed before I before. I don’t know how long before. Well, let’s see your father. Your mother died in 1325, about of 1925. And your father died much later. Yes. 1951.

00:09:09:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: he was a farmer, little man in his way. A very quiet man, but very, husky. Now, this is the one that’s in the chapter that I just read. let me see if you don’t mind. I’d like you to read this. The two. Fergus. Yeah. About. And explain what this is from the late 60s. This is the last chapter of a book on attitudes toward academics.

00:09:36:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: A gifted child that you have just written. Yes. And I’m just finishing the preliminary printing. The first section of it is little tips to parents on things that should be done. And the parents don’t always think of them. And this is on consulting the child, loving him. Have some say in his own education. In the late 1860s, a group of farmers in the mountains of East Tennessee, as it is not eastern Tennessee, it’s East Tennessee East.

00:10:08:02 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: okay, that’s an animal state. That’s why I came down to be hired a teacher for their children. Each man paying the teacher stages, for each child he sent to school. One father, after introducing the school age children, said in This is John. John was my grandfather. He’s only five, but he knows his letters and he wants to come.

00:10:30:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I’ll pay for him as long as he wants to stay. When he gets tired of it, let him come home. John never got tired of it. He stayed in school, was only necessary times out to make money, and later he did it until he had a PhD from Johns Hopkins at 70. When he told me the story, he was still grateful to the father left his own decision at 25.

00:10:53:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s really something. And that’s that’s your father. It had his PhD in Latin. Yes, from Johns Hopkins before he went to college. You can major in theology, Latin, Greek or math. And he chose the lesser evil of the college education. But his real interest was in trees. I see down here. He was a forester from the new profession of forestry.

00:11:17:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Came along. He was hired summers by the State Department station in Ohio because he knew trees that no one else did. There were no trained foresters. He was just self-taught. Yes, he he could look out there and tell you the. Species of every tree you see at that render at that distance. Well, did he ever teach Latin. Yeah.

00:11:39:19 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: He did, yes, he taught Latin for three years. Until about when did this. Let’s start with the summers. I was ten, 11. I think he was hired by the state during summer. And then I think was a year. I was 13, 12 or 13. He got a full time job as a Forester state. He was really happy about that.

00:12:05:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: He had actually retired and he had just then the two. Occupation. Yes. And your mother, I mean, you mother worked at her house at home. That’s maybe she had some influence from her mother even after she got out of the home. How do you how do you mean that she never went out and did work outside. Couldn’t get jobs in those days.

00:12:29:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Let’s see. This would’ve been. Well, I say, yeah, she died. She died fairly. She couldn’t get a job today. We have one. We’ve interviewed a lot of, women around here who have taught who’ve been teachers back in the 20s. They would say the same thing that that some of them had seven year long courtships. Because the minute they got married, they wouldn’t be teach each.

00:12:52:16 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s really shows how things change. Just because I had. And you only have one brother and sisters who, what was a negative average factor in the family somewhere? And my mother had a very serious miscarriage. Yeah. Her third child, which I suspect to us at our age. They did. They know at that time? No, I didn’t know at that time.

00:13:16:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I’m just. But you did you find it in your. Well, my daughter, who was our age. Oh, I see, and I consider that and that miscarriage of my mother’s, and she never received any more of them. I see. How was your brother? Older. You knew six years younger kids. So, so our salesman was 1995. Where is he now?

00:13:46:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It’s, retired Florida. do you visit him? He was a very successful castlehill, a fundamental, successful apartment builder. This is about, you know, it’s very high. And some of us and absolutely nonexistent, you know. Okay, where I want to go. I wasn’t very high intelligence, but no business ability. Yeah, that’s. It’s a different kind of effort, I think.

00:14:12:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I think you’re right. He looks like his father, though. Got to do something you really enjoy. Oh, yes. Yes. Let’s see now. What? Now I’ve got to come down to you and your family. Lucy, I wanted to check your mother was, died much earlier than you. Probably she was. How old when she died? She must have been near middle 50s.

00:14:38:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So your father, was he married again several years or five years later. And was quite. He was 88. and even than the typical. Right. Is there? Yes. and then. Okay, when we get to you. You got married. Quinn. How old were you? 29. 29. That’s about the same as you. Yes. Well, I was, very disgusted with marriage by parents marriage.

00:15:12:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But I had been so very happy, and they were both such good people. Well, I had I wasn’t having any dick. Did you it include, your grandmother who was even. Even without my grandmother. He loved to be outdoors, and she’d been trained to be afraid of everything. Of course, you don’t have to live in the country. It was great for those kids to grow up in the country.

00:15:35:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And she was that afraid of horses? Weren’t any cars. and in everything, they were exactly as I say. They should never have been introduced to each. But they were both good people. Yeah. And I just I just had to. We’re engaged about eight years. Can you remember consciously making this? Oh, connection and decision. Yes. How old were you when you think about 20 I’m, I matured right, right, right.

00:16:05:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Major anger. Well I, I definitely decided quite early that I was not about to marry. I wasn’t getting into any such messes that. Well, let’s see now. How did you you went on to school. What happened after high school or. I didn’t go through high school. I was afraid of kids. I was a social isolation. You seen it?

00:16:30:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, yes, I was. Tell me about the first grade when they want to put you in for the school, which was still valued. Achievement going to put me in fourth. I was reading up there and my parents said no, first grade, so she won’t be fifth. Socially, I was six and a half and so they put me in first grade.

00:16:53:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Father professor in Antioch College. All right, a little bit. Right. And I just didn’t nobody dislike me. They just they thought that Barbara Williams and I were the two children who I knew he was a candy man. But your age. What is that? that was a disparaging remarks over control. Oh, I oh, well. And I just, you know, heard me all through.

00:17:28:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I had a double promotion second, and then in fourth I had another double promotion in fifth. There was another girl who was motherly and sort of took me under her wing. When we moved to Wall Street, like the year that my father went to forestry. Oh, this was all in Ohio. This was in Yellow Springs, Ohio. The first six brothers, seventh, eighth and Worcester.

00:17:51:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: There were two other isolates. One was Jewish. Well, it was I’m not sure of shoot, Russian, Polish or Jewish, but they were both isolates. And the three of us had to go. Then we moved to Athens and I was just scared. I didn’t dare go indoors. Strange, I suppose, although strange kids Ohio just asked all. But I hope every school teachers had have a little high school education.

00:18:22:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, and here we’re really talking 50 years old with no high school education. Could not afford to go to high school. The 13 year old. So the college pretty unattractive, but and I went to that. Now, what year was this about? Oh, let’s see. They kept me out of school years, so I would have had seven years from the time I was six and I was 13 there.

00:18:51:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Okay. So I went you were nine nine. So that was about. Well, yeah. 12 or something. Roughly better. I could figure it out. That’s pretty close. so now you. I went to school with these, with these little aged school schoolteachers and, Yeah, well, it was high school. Yeah, but it was a high school level work. But it was at the college, and it may be getting it from a prejudiced state.

00:19:22:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You did it? Well, some of your other interviewees about let’s talk about the restrictions that were placed on teachers. But time we were allowed to have a date. They were worse in the East and in the West. Some places you had to sign a contract that you wouldn’t have a date, a date, a date. Yeah. They didn’t think it was just proper.

00:19:43:16 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They thought it would lead to marriage and you would be able to. That was the a teacher should be sexless. I think you’re living now when you’re East. You were 13 and there were 40, 50. They were planning on being teachers. Is that what you think? I’ve already been teacher. Oh, they were going back. They were going back there because of the requirement to fill the requirements.

00:20:04:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But were you just trying to get married or did you want to teach? Oh, well, I didn’t teach anything, but. Oh, but that was where I couldn’t take that education with people who was going myself. Oh, so. And it turned out very nicely, because after a while back I got into some advanced courses, college level courses in high school and got double credit for them.

00:20:30:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So I was college seven years. So you were by the time you were 20, you were, oh no. I stopped a year and a half carried mail. Oh, that’s World War one. Yes. Well, the young men all went to war and the older man got to Detroit for Henry Ford, paying all $5 a day, and nobody was going to stay one man.

00:20:52:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, for 1800 a year. If you get the $5 a day in Detroit. So there were there were some jobs did how did you decide? Did it just look like I was always an examination and that I was curious? Joe asked you it very easy examination. It doesn’t take much brains to be. It didn’t in those days to be a rural mail carrier.

00:21:14:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: What kind of what kind of exam was it? What did they. I don’t remember, actually. I suppose it was kind of a thing to tell you if it’s any.

00:21:26:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh. Oh, it’s in there. Look, it’s not. See, I suppose it was maybe kind of a general aptitude. It probably. Yes. I was the first rural mail carrier in the country. It was a piece of the Paris edition of a New York country. Yeah, a woman. Yeah. So this. All right, so now this letter makes a lot more sense.

00:21:50:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Tell me, tell me, what? Did you encounter any obstacles when you went to take this thing? No, they didn’t say desperate for people. And you were the only woman in the country that applied. Well, apparently saw a place to at least a New York paper which had Paris editions, thought it was two soldiers sent back to cook. And, you know, is that right?

00:22:13:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So where was this, exam? Was it right there? Yes. And was anybody really surprised when you showed up to take it or. I think probably saw it, but I don’t really remember. You don’t remember being you were too apprehensive. Well, I know, I know, I know why I if took it, I had seen advertised in the car mechanics course in Detroit.

00:22:37:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I don’t go and take that up. And my mother was utterly horrified and she saw this note. This is a rural man, very excited about the head of the lesser evil that’s out. That’s a thing about farm boys. Well, so you took this test and it passed it. And you see all the young men just they rushed into what we believed in that boy.

00:22:59:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We were going to make the world safe for democracy. We believed it. I was the only woman in physics class at the first of the semester, before we got into the war. At the end of the semester, I was physics class. You were it, I was it. Oh my gosh, this all went. Did you? At that time, there were no women’s, catalog service.

00:23:24:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: No, no. Whatever. Yeah. So they were there may have been a wait a minute nurse or somewhere in the service, I don’t know, but I had at 18 and halfway through my sophomore year of high school, I was not, not a nurse. So. So you took time out. Took time out for you to have and read this letter now and explain what this was and how it came about.

00:23:51:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Your resignation as rural mail carrier on route number three out of Athens has been received and accepted as requested by you. I had enough money saved and the other mail carrier said, well, why stop now? It’s February. the worst of the winter is over. You made it this year. Why not go on budget? I was ready to go back to it.

00:24:13:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: In this connection, I wish to state that your service is covering over one and a half years of time from August 26th, 1918 to February 1st, 1920 have been entirely satisfactory to the management of this office. and of course, at the moment they were entirely satisfactory, because the postmaster place bets that I would last the first time in America is a place best that I wouldn’t want him.

00:24:39:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So that’s him. that’s five so highly satisfactory. oh. Again, as well as to patrons and deserving compliments having been received from those you have served, I thought was so wonderful that a woman could do it. In fact, the usual high efficiency record in this office, it was up to you to demonstrate to the people that a woman could deliver rural mails in a capable and systematic manner, as she has proven her efficiency in other lines of work, with the same energy and interest shown while under my supervision, you will succeed in any undertaking.

00:25:17:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Sincerely. Early postmaster. That’s if you could sit in a buggy eight hours a day. You could doing that, I think. So funny that it sounds like a really progressive, post. It sounds like something you could read today. Yes. Same kind of thing. Was it that way? Yes. He was actually, I didn’t see very much. but that’s the sort of person he was.

00:25:45:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So he did that for a year and a half. How did, Well, it says here that most he must have gotten several comments from the people you delivered to me. There was no resistance there either. They got their mail. Yeah, that’s. And I overcame a desperate fear of bugs. Oh, there was one. Your mother must have been petrified every day.

00:26:05:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You now. Well, well, my mother probably was, but I have to do something to get away from various things at home. Did. My grandmother was passing place, praying. Or if I brought a Saturday Evening Post home, I knew better. Well, I always had what she thought. Oh, it was simple. Anything I enjoyed was simple. Oh let’s see. Oh, what your your father was, you were living at home and you were going to school.

00:26:34:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes. Had. How did he react to you taking this job? Well, I’m sure right with him. Very much. All right with him. I kind of thought that’s what he would have been like. How about your grandmother? Did she handle it? Actually, she didn’t make any objections. I never knew, but her attitude was. But it wasn’t amoral like bringing home to him, injurious to her, to my morals, to ride around the buggy.

00:27:03:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: All that. As for the reaction on the manners for Christmas, well, I had to carry mail and everybody was so sorry for me. They offered me the fried chicken and the is that right? I never did eat my regular lunch that day. Halfway around, I broke down in the middle of a piece of the best chocolate fudge brownie.

00:27:21:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Okay, so I finished that fudge. Okay, okay. That’s neat. And more prosaically, about five miles down the road, it got 16 below zero. And that was back in Ohio. It was. And you had to an up and buggy. I had a let roll like a little charcoal burner under my feet, but still it got a little chilly. And about five miles down the road there was a nice old farmer who would come out every morning and have a quick cake wrapped around a nice little sausage, or made something with his wife beaming in the doorway.

00:27:58:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: one of my hands out of my That was a general sort of reaction. So it took you eight hours to get all that eight hours in good weather. It was mostly up and down hill, In bad weather, if I got him in 12 hours. I was very lucky because it was red plain mud. So what time do you start in the morning?

00:28:17:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Six. What’s the first office? About 530. Sorry. Handsome male. Not as much as. Her husband over there past. Sorry. He’s a male. Oh, boy. I had a hundred mailboxes in front of seven miles, but still 27 miles. My gosh, the sort of the mailman you’ve got. Your horse have delivery stable, but down the road, it’s a road was underwater because it was.

00:28:46:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You went down the river Valley bridge flooded every spring or else it was flooded too badly. You went around the hills and came back over the hills, which I wasn’t about to do if I. Oh, this. Oh, gosh, was it. What kind of tree to me was it like marsh hills? Or if it was like our fields on the timbered?

00:29:06:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh my. I’m not as big as I recall. State. And the roads in those days were not kinder. They simply weren’t along the same lines. Well, have you lost? Were you the same size right now? Oh, I need you taller. Oh, gosh, you had a big above you. That’s right. Yes, I, I had to dig draft horses. They they weren’t fighters.

00:29:30:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Hey, summer is the light horses of the other characters. But I knew that, right. Yeah. And I got to was one pass at a time. And did they used more so they used to or.

00:29:44:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That was simpler to just use one. How tall are you I, I, I think tall you were the trunk I was. You must have looked about two inches tall next to those for that horse, you know. Well, the horses weren’t so cattle. There were heavy field stock. Yes. They could furrow until or single trees started to crack once.

00:30:06:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And so I got, I got a stick poster. It’s like mother. Oh, but you could furrow as long as it wasn’t too much red. You. Oh, gosh, that was be something when you went for that. It was. It was fun. You see the horse get to work. That’s what you say. He knew the route? Yes.

00:30:27:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Very nice, gentle passes. Except like I see one of you got it felt and then took about. Oh, with the eyes. There was one hill on the north slope. That was, I see, or one letter, and I had my horse a sharp shot every morning. What did they do? How did they do? They had put little spike. It’s a slight little.

00:30:50:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. The bottom side of the horseshoe. It has little protrusions. And you will sharpen them so that they into biting flies. But by the time I got around there they’d be worn that patch of sharp. And therefore I should sit down or under tail. The buggy would act as if it would come round right angles. Oh yes, that would serve as a brake and we would slow down.

00:31:15:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. Oh, I tripped shot. But I don’t want you to see that we made it. Did you ever know. Oh, that sounds incredible. I would like to. I wish you could have a picture that looks like something. Well, now, after you quit, you were. How old? At 19? Let’s see. I’m not sure. Let’s see. This is 2019, 20th February 1920.

00:31:44:03 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I would have been 1921, but man, I would’ve been 2128. Exactly. So then you went back. Back to your junior and senior year of college. Oh, College. Yes. Okay. I see and then a year at Clark University, majoring in psychology. Psychology professor at Ohio University was Clark graduate. And he got me a scholarship. And my mother managed for us from live on.

00:32:11:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: What do you remember what tuition was then? About $100 a semester in your year, I think. Wait a minute. I won’t guarantee you. Yeah, my memory for details is lousy. I remember ideas, beautiful, but not details. Anyhow, I got free tuition and borrowed enough money to forward. Now, this was just a year that you were just a year.

00:32:35:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I got my masters. In a year you did? Oh gosh. And Clark was one of the best schools. And you weren’t married yet? Oh, I was just 23. Yeah. Let’s see. I can.

00:32:53:09 - Unknown: I think graduated in 1925.

00:32:58:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Your first year I. And then a year at Clark and then a year at what they called the Massachusetts School for feebleminded. Damn, you top there. No, I tested Stanford HST. Oh, you couldn’t get a testing job without experience. You couldn’t get experience without a job, and the head of the institution had no money, not enough money. So if you solved the problem very neatly by hiring new psychologists as a temp, I had attendance wages and giving me a year of experience and then sending them home with his blessing.

00:33:35:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So that’s what I did. You were trained at Waverly. You could get a job almost anywhere because he had an international reputation. So. And the reason he had the reputation, one reason I had had, of course, a middle class undergraduate person, Midwestern graduate, but I was not allowed to give a test to a child. His IQ was not known.

00:33:57:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, well, I spent a month testing children in the institution every year for ten, 15, 20 years whose IQ were known and stable. And then they turned me loose on it. Real test on tests of one of the more difficult ones to test into institutional signify. Sure up. And then we did a survey. Doctor Fernald was hired by the state to do a survey of three industrial schools in the state.

00:34:31:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Reform schools? Oh, yeah, schools that most people from. So two of us went out to those schools and tested all of the children. Name on. Now this was Massachusetts. Yes. Okay. And year of that. And then I got worried about my mother’s health. What, was was right before she died. Well, about a year before she died, she had cancer faster.

00:35:01:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She had a sweating examiner. She knew she had lumps. There. Was that right? Yeah, but she didn’t get it. And one examiner, by the time it was, you know, she only had 2 or 3 weeks consent. Fortunately, because, well, I realized that something was wrong with her and my father for a few months, and then suddenly, overnight, both in one week.

00:35:25:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I think Doctor Fernald that I considered recommended me there. I could still have gotten a recommendation system and all that. And my major, Professor Clark, and it just threw me. Also, I felt I should be near my mother. So I got a job in Columbus, Ohio, 75 miles from home. What we do mental testing is what they call the Bureau of Juvenile Research.

00:35:49:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We got the kids, the state or state authorities worried about, oh, they could be dependents. They could be delinquents for the children’s home sent to me. And one matron sent a girl in, to go over that. She was crazy or feebleminded because she asked such crazy questions. Was nothing wrong with the girl except that I 250. Is that right?

00:36:12:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We don’t have a chance to test the matron.

00:36:18:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And parents, we had our patient days on Saturday. Parents could bring their children in for testing. I did, but mostly it was juvenile court cases. Easy to find the drug in the infant. And I’ve been shot ever since, I suppose. Yeah, especially at that time. Yeah, well, I don’t know what happened to it. I’ve been through three industrial schools in Massachusetts.

00:36:41:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: but the girl, I had to work juvenile research. Well, accused her own father of raping her because she didn’t want the the education of churches to discover that she had been promiscuous. that’s the last thing. Yeah. Oh, that sort of thing does happen. But the girls to whom it has happened don’t act like she did.

00:37:04:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She was like, everybody believes it. I don’t know her latest predictive value. Oh, that’s too bad. It would’ve been a jury trial, but. Well, for years. Was that we not only gave the Stanford-Binet age, we did our own social work, okay? We had to do everything except the psychiatrist took over her work later. All right, let’s get your my,

00:37:33:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, let’s see now then. By then, you were about 25, and I must have been about 20, about 2405. When I left there, I was, say, four years. And then I had one of these identity crises. Only we didn’t know this term that my mother had died. And I had realized suddenly that what I was doing was living her life.

00:37:57:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But curiously, she had never had a chance to to live sort of life she wanted to live. And she had been so desperately anxious for me to live, for me not to be stuck like she was in the country. Well, in the country and in America, in the home. But she made a marvelous librarian. She loved books, and she had no time to read them then no access to, and she wanted me to have the thing she and and I had them.

00:38:34:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But suddenly, after she died, I realized that it what I’d been doing was living her life. And it was no longer any point at. So I had my second identity crisis. Well, I. Took the winter off, like up in the Adirondacks and cultural aspects. That wasn’t about I came back here and tried to go to the juvenile research.

00:39:03:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Just couldn’t take it anymore. Well, I was I got on the bus headed west, and this time you’re still not married. You’re still up there, I’ve been corresponding with my husband, a friend of the house who was also a friend of mine, and so free became genial and introduced us by mail and exchanging letters. He was in Idaho?

00:39:27:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: No, he was, he was in Alberta for racing. We. But he had a sister in Oregon. I got as far as Oregon. I got a job at, at Stanfield, and he came to visit his sister in Palmerston. We knew each other a week. Not in the biblical flats, I didn’t go right up to the mountains to fix a cabin up where we could spend the honeymoon.

00:39:55:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Getting up. But it took Brown, too, and I thought he was up in the mountains. And he entered for five brothers and sisters. The giants. Right. He took a couple that year. We had a rough on it, and I went to see I have a five wedding dress from from Hermiston. Well, is this when this picture was taken?

00:40:16:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes. We took our stuff in there the 1st of January. The only child ever been there. I think. So now this was. Let’s see, January 2nd, 1929 is when you got married. Okay. And then you just stayed in there all winter. A boy farmer has nothing to do in the winter. That’s. That’s right. Yeah. And I hiked around.

00:40:41:08 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I did everything in sight. had a lovely time there. Once a month, we’d snowshoe out to nine miles to a ranch. You get the mail and some fresh produce. And then in the spring, you had a job for raised wheat. Let’s see. I don’t think we ever. I don’t know if we mentioned his name yet.

00:41:01:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, Robert, I referrals. I will, and he was born in in Virginia, just a couple of miles east of here. My life. Oh, yes, father. Oh, that’s the trouble with Appalachian now, I think, is it? The people will say, get up and get that up and go, yeah. My father’s whole family left. Is that right? Yes. They’re all prosperous people.

00:41:25:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I mean, I don’t mean rich, but yeah, successful. Reasonably. And my husband told that my left, what’s left are the people who didn’t have the ambition to I or just couldn’t get out of what you could get out my husband bumpkin. Right out here on freight trains. You didn’t have any money left, right? Oh, let’s see now. You.

00:41:52:02 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So he’s a wheat farmer? At the time? You were. At the time I met him, he’d been on a variety of other things. And they discovered that he had a very great mechanical talent. And we fast, complete, faster, flatter. Yeah. With those come by. Yes. And the big trigger. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I was still allergic to housework, but.

00:42:12:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well you, you he had that for years when he first came to the sheepherder and he knew what housework was. Now he was about 40 when you got married. That was 39 I think he had just worked in restaurants in the winter, his sheep in the summer. Keeping both housework was. He had the bright idea of that too, since he was physically stronger.

00:42:38:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She does the heaviest work, which sounds like sexism, but it wasn’t. Yeah, he never that washing by hand was heavier works and running the tractor. So I ran the tractor washing. Okay, that’s really something. He was two generations advance of his I think so. So it wasn’t it isn’t sexism but they interpreted it that way. No, I keep up.

00:42:57:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I see what you said. You are hardly 250 pounds in six feet. You’re pretty tired. You needed most of the in your muscles. Yeah. And you get those toes clean with a plunger like you use in the bathtub when they. When they wouldn’t paddle looking thinner. I mean, a lot of those rubber was oh, okay, go up and down.

00:43:18:19 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, you mentioned earlier that, you know, you decided that you didn’t want have any part of marriage for a while this time. Yeah, this time I had to have advised the fact that the part your parents had played, that they were simply too uncongenial, and that if I found someone who was congenial for. And I had also discovered that I was very highly sexed, it had been the devil definition of who was that world who was only offense was that they had slept around one.

00:43:48:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So I was little.

00:43:52:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I think that’s the most candid thing I’ve heard. Ages. I was talking to Clark. Well, I asked what the the prime requisite for being accepted Clark was intellectual honesty. I asked for the other student. That’s what that was. He said. Yes, frighteningly so. Yes, I’m sure like that would. Well, I think my mother was under 68. Possibly, but how?

00:44:20:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Logically. But certainly by condition. Well, listen, this is a good time for me then to ask, but, let’s see now. You got married after she had died? Yes. Oh, I would never have married. But she was alive. It was like. Is that right? Yeah. I she she really didn’t want you to fall into that. No. And she assumed that all marriages would be that way.

00:44:42:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well like that. Gosh. What about your dad? What was his? Oh, what if you have feelings? He was singular. He was a kind man, but he didn’t notice other people’s reactions at all. Just wasn’t aware. He just wasn’t aware, That’s what it. What kind of mom of. Let me tell you beforehand, if you don’t answer any questions, I have a feeling that you’ll.

00:45:09:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You’ll answer anyway. But what kind of information did you get? Any sex information from? well, I got it from the psychologist. It’s all right. It’s all right with the psychology library. The just. You just went looked it up as a professional psychology package library. And do the psychology works in his department, Possibly because this is retrospect.

00:45:36:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Possibly because some of that might not have been accepted by the man. All I think he’s, psychopathic of sexual psychology have, like, at least nine volumes on normal sex. And I was about to read it. Right. I’m. But I actually didn’t know anything about sex. Sure. And I matured emotionally quite like it wasn’t bothering me. By the time it started bothering me, I knew about.

00:46:08:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, no, your husband was, Maybe that was more common, though, that men were older when they got married, but, did he ever express any he been married? Oh. Before in World War one? He married it just before you went to war, And she divorced him during overseas. Now, that must have been fairly unusual at that time.

00:46:30:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You for money or before anything? Yes. Yeah. I don’t know. There wasn’t money. Never talked about it. Didn’t seem to be much between them. He wasn’t married. Well, did they have children or no. And then he just didn’t pass it around from one job to another and then over the place until he settled down there. Now, from now, let’s say you two were married about 34 years.

00:47:05:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: No, no.

00:47:09:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. I want to get to that. That’s really interesting, too. Well, when did you finally get to teaching? Oh, that’s much later. This is a lot. About ten years after. Yeah. When we left, I looked around. Here’s another thing. Reason we left Texas. They started high school. They were both in the same grade by that time. How come they were close to that?

00:47:32:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, Florence been a year behind, but yeah, she did tell us 8 in 1 year. Oh, a teacher who thought she should achieve it. Then they went to high school and they in or a few. And the superintendent said that no ninth grader could learn algebra and wouldn’t let her take it. Made her take general math. which is a rehash of seventh eighth grade research that she had.

00:47:57:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And she just was fed up with school. She brought her books home. She said yes. She said she was quitting school. She was going to be a cowboy. What did you do? Oh, it was legal then. It was the eighth grade. You could you can quit. And we didn’t see any for sending her back to that high school.

00:48:17:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, yeah? Yeah. Then I started scouting around to find a high school that would let her take it out back and Latin instead of home EC. The first. She brought it badly. I mean, she borrowed. Yeah. And I don’t live in Saint Mary’s. I only looked around for a place to rent a house. This was a housing shortage.

00:48:41:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We found one in Fernwood. I asked my husband to buy a little one man for me. Oh, that’s. That’s. And they did all their high school in Saint Mary’s and graduated from there. Graduated from there. So there was this in Fernwood. It’s close. Fernwood is still I don’t know how many miles, but it was a bus line, just like Mary’s.

00:49:06:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So then you were still at home? Home? Only in their junior year. They were out of everything socially because they had. Right. That’s all I. So I had an apartment down in Saint Mary’s and to support the apartments, I got a job in a restaurant washing dishes. So you, you and the the two girls lived there? Yes.

00:49:27:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And my, from they work all weekends to that. And then you work. How did your husband how did you resolve that? Well, he realized the necessity of. He saw that they needed something social. So they had a great deal more social lives and that having a larger high school. And one thing he was unhappy about for her children, she was in the class, the junior class for everybody.

00:49:51:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I thought, well, everybody was needed. Yeah. She had no more dramatic changes in her girl, but she was in the class play and they weren’t even separate remotely. All right. Well, you doesn’t seem like you would have gotten home hardly at all. You did. You’d get well, the weekends off and out. I’d have days off. I come down there and his hours worked.

00:50:11:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: His hours weren’t were very flexible. He’s only oh I see. Yeah. Oh. Before I those first two years when he had the sawmill. Yeah, yeah, I helped out there. Saw mill. We’d both go out there. there were jobs that I could do, you know. Getting the lumber away from the mill, that sort of thing.

00:50:33:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So you you were able to work together sometime? Well, let’s see now, when they graduate from high school, about when would that be? That was in 48 or. Okay. And then then we had to have money. Lawrence went to McGill, Montreal, first West Region, Portland. I went crazy. Did you go, once you reached one for West mama?

00:51:00:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: What? You were Cuckoo’s Nest. But what did you do that came down here just to hear? I don’t hear to Spokane. What’s her job? I forget there are two kinds I could get housework and teaching. I didn’t know, which I hate the most, so I decided to take the one that I got first. What I got first was a teaching job in the industrial school.

00:51:24:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, you didn’t need certification to teach in the industrial school. Just needed the iron. Will they say you small classes opportunity for individual guys. And so I thought, well, for our next psychologist that that’ll be a bad idea. It is like everything else, all the other publicity about the industrial school, the state, the small classes were about 20, oh oh individual guidance and class credit.

00:51:50:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You’re a better woman. I the teaching day classroom day was eight hours. Eight hours. Oh, the industrial school, the reform school had just been reformed. There’d been an examination by prestigious commission from someplace back east and suggested certain reforms. They got a man in from Boys Town to carry them out a year before. One of them was that the boys and the girls from the girls Industrial school, a mile down the road should be taught together.

00:52:22:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: but that upset the teachers tremendously. So some one teacher left. They, the new principal, had to hire a whole bunch of new teachers. That’s why there was an opening. Oh, they just they couldn’t deal with that in Clinton. Well, I don’t know. That’s why they kept it in houses. There was only one of the old teachers left the superintendent to enter work with employees who were hostile to all the reforms he was trying to put in, and he was being forced back gradually toward the staff and things that the Peabody Commission had denounced.

00:53:02:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Originally, this was the Peabody Commission, was they people who had investigations? Oh, recommendations. Okay. He was being forced back away from his father Flanagan stance into the old. I have an. He well, he had a family to support. He had to hold a job. Father Flanagan just said, I can’t do it for this staff. Now, you were there.

00:53:34:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I was there. I gave out in January. Of the five new teachers, I was the fourth to go of the same. Oh, I was the last of the five to go. I lasted longer than any of the others. It’s a bit about 50, 49, 50. Yes. But the situation was simply impossible with the people at the cottages, the officers at the cottages working against the school all the time.

00:54:04:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well then your husband only live about four more years. Yes. Was that, Well, I, I came back here. We still needed, but still needed two incomes. Because you’re both. Your daughters were still in college, so I got a teaching job up at Tannen’s. Future tense. Yeah, I taught there two years. We were together there. Was he working then?

00:54:28:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes, he was working in a sawmill. He had a job or something other than. And then let’s see. But then I taught a year at restroom. Okay. He had a heart attack safety the summer before that year, and I was teaching and going into Spokane to visit him every evening. So he was in heat and he was in the hospital or nursing home all that winter.

00:54:54:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: that spring, they said I could bring him home if I could be within 20 minutes of the rapid clinic. So, and we get to Spokane. He died later that summer, and then I went on teaching. We had dance. Yeah, he had no insurance. And you hear an awful. Ouch. Oh, gosh. Oh, yeah. If I have to take off from that, hospital in nursing home, did you did you find it a big adjustment that you had to make?

00:55:26:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Or do you think in being with it. Yeah, I was just too busy to know by. There must have been a big adjustment. Yeah. And that I had to start teaching about a week after, and I didn’t have time to think about my adjustment. I was busy the Indian reservation that with kids who had reservations about white teachers, and there.

00:55:53:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It was a full time job. All right. I do know that I went up to 145 right after before I had. Yes, before I had time to look in the mirror. No, I looked in the mirror. I went down again. All right. Lord, 45 doesn’t sound like a lot, but I never. So. So then you taught. I kept on teaching until retirement age.

00:56:21:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And did you both your daughters finished college? Yes. Well, that’s figured she was a read during Ruth’s junior year of reading. She married a senior. And the senior graduated? Naturally. Yeah. Job at Hanford, where there was no college. So Ruth didn’t finish her junior year. But late later, he went on for his doctorate at the University of Wisconsin.

00:56:47:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She almost got through her senior year. Then he graduated, got a job at the University of Oregon, which requires a year residence. so I had to take it all over again. So I graduated with five her children in the audience. Is that right? Is that how many she had? Five that she had then? She has eight now.

00:57:05:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, my gosh. Let me just turn it up. Okay. let me stop the interview on Saturday. Yeah, yeah. You had just mentioned that your oldest, her youngest daughter has eight children. Yes. Which one? That’s one with the dark haired one in. Is that the very same veterinarian? Well, I, I’m really surprised that she had eight.

00:57:32:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And you carefully. So she did. Wasn’t necessarily that. Maybe she did. Well, she did have children. Check. Yes. I would have liked more. But this thyroid problem. Yeah. Was, too expensive. I didn’t there away from the specialist. I couldn’t get through the specialist. My husband was making 2000 a year. But you’re quite good in the depression.

00:57:57:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, yeah. Really? We were supporting two children, Miss Mary Mercer, and we were 75 miles from the specialist. It just so you couldn’t afford to take the chance? No. Now it’s Florence. Let’s see. Is Florence married to. She was, for a little while. Those were marriages you had overseas? About two weeks. And they were separated for four years.

00:58:21:03 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They grew apart. Yeah. No children. Unfortunately. And she never remarried? No. She seems really independent. She is now. What I was trying to think of. What kind of plans you said. That’s the 234. after marriage. Well. Oh, okay. Now, I went back in the background. I had to learn to sew. She wasn’t any clothes. Eight. By the way, did I give the impression that we sent the girls to college?

00:58:50:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They they contributed all they could. Did they left us half in Florence. Tampa? And you just saw them now? Flunky is cooking, isn’t it? No. It’s all there was a cook. It’s like a a wake up table. Finish the dishes. It the dirty work in general. Yeah. This is only 18. She wasn’t competent to cook. I caught a couple hundred boys.

00:59:12:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, but she she did that two summers in Florence. My husband was working in a sawmill and and Florence got a job in the later work territory they had getting heavy work. They both made all they could, but they couldn’t make enough to support the college. Yeah, but they both went through Florence, went to Florence, went to McGill, Montreal for it to read.

00:59:39:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes. Florence want to go whatever other country was like. She had dual citizenship. Oh, I see, because they were born up in. Oh, yes, in Alberta. Oh, Alberta, I see. Well, I don’t wonder. I don’t think I asked you last time you didn’t get any sex education at home. Oh, no. Absolutely not. But did you give did you talk to them about it?

01:00:04:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I started the first question. Neither of them I asked. I started answering at length, discovered thought. And for that I just answered about half. Yeah, yeah. They don’t want at all. They just they just curious about one. I don’t know, other group tell me what they want to know and then shut up. Yeah. So by the time they left home they they think in the dark about what was going on.

01:00:31:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I hope not. I don’t remember just how much they did ask. Yeah. They couldn’t if they had any. Well, Florence she didn’t. Then after her divorce, she didn’t ever remarry? No. And were you surprised at that? I could see they were growing apart. I could see when it came back that they were very different. He wanted a nice housewife.

01:01:01:20 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She had warned him what a professional world would be like. Yeah, that. And he thought he had accepted it. But when it came right down to it, he could. Yeah. And she never remarried? No, she doesn’t seem to be interested man. That way she enjoys talking. Is I too old to young or happily married? Yeah. Yeah, but it’s very likely to make a pass at her.

01:01:25:02 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: She’s not interested in and never, apparently didn’t needed children. No. Is all of this about women being fulfilled only through their children. It’s a bunk. Good. Okay. Good to be here. I although I expect I would expect that from you because you’re just. I was so interested in what you’re telling me about your life. It’s so different. So the generation I had, my mother.

01:01:52:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I have a letter that she wrote to a cousin. The cousins sent her a letter to me as she got much older, and my mother said she didn’t see any reason why it wasn’t all right for a woman to stand up and speak. It felt like she was going to get some lecture. Your mother was. Yes. What happens?

01:02:11:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, is that right? Or she was a crusader in the temperance movement. And I was glad she died before she discovered this ledger. Al Capone. Yeah, that would have been the Crusades for a long time. Well, they have such unforeseen consequences. I wonder, did I ask you before when? When? when women got the right to vote. You were funny.

01:02:36:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I was just 21. 21. Yes. I had voted the year I was first year I for what would you vote for? What was the first I don’t remember, I don’t remember it. Was it it was it an issue that you were involved in with. No voting? No. I was too busy getting education involved and carrying mail. I just didn’t know what was going on in the world of all, you know, what was going on.

01:03:02:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, but I, I had no idea of what the world outside of the academic world was like. I’m surprised it wasn’t an issue, though. At school.

01:03:17:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Not that I don’t remember. I just thought it was be cuz it sounded like such a a climate for for intellectuals where you were Ohio University wasn’t climate friendly. It wasn’t. It was a cow college. and it but I went to Clark. It would have been. Yeah. That was, that was not. That was after my mother. Oh, I it was a dead issue.

01:03:41:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Okay. That’s right. I forgot you were at two different places. You went to high school, at the college and then college at the same. Oh, yeah. So I had my whole high school and college years where at Ohio University was a small college at that time. Not eligible to get Phi Beta Kappa. Oh. And we just didn’t didn’t know about national issues.

01:04:09:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, I can see what you mean. what? I would like to start asking some questions that you’re probably used to. The ones that we showed you last time. Yes. first of all, do you consider yourself more rural or urban? Would you say we we mostly we’re going around to smaller places the and lose to this kind of atypical but I really don’t know.

01:04:38:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I prefer to be rural but not farm. Yeah. The timber kind of rural. I would love to live out on caretakers I have up above or a, you know, cedar timber. Oh, I’m not physically strong enough to do well. Yeah. With you. Why don’t you get in to see what have you had. It’s about 1960, I think roughly.

01:05:01:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It progresses slowly. It’s reversible. Apparently. Doctor Stein was almost 18 or older, I think. Oh, wait a minute. He doesn’t get that enthusiastic about poor research. See, I go to, but I’ve never been strong enough to really take care of myself out for everything had to be done by making sure your stature little. As long as my husband is working.

01:05:26:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We got left out as far in the country as we could get. He didn’t care for farming. He wasn’t a stock man. He was a machinery and timber man. Yeah, we we loved it out there. Well, given that, you know, if you were going to advise somebody either way to live in the country or live in the city, what would you, I tell you depends on the temperament of a person.

01:05:51:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. And a person with any intellectual interests living in the country must have access to a library somehow, or else enough income to subscribe to everything side by side, which you don’t usually have if you’re making her limit. That’s true. I think each individual had better make that decision for himself, and anyone else can write well. How about would you say, do you see any difference between what would be better for a man or a woman in terms of no, I don’t, except in terms of the physical capability to all trees and cut the firewood.

01:06:30:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I couldn’t fall a tree so I could follow them up. Kids could split them. But, Oh, I guess, Oh, yeah. You know, just trees are a bit taller than it doesn’t. That’s a matter of scale. Yeah, yeah. And I haven’t the physical skills. Yeah. Women do much. I know there are people doing it. That’s fine. Well, I think the country’s a better place to bring up children if I’m just think they are more intelligent.

01:07:05:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: The young people seem to be. Okay. Well, let me read something. Okay. Letter, this is Florence and Laura. You’re my daughter. That’s the veterinarian in van nice. Southern California drivers trained are absolute idiots. When the weather gets bad, they just don’t seem to believe in bad weather. Southern California pilots react several like we are having a rash of bad weather, plane crashes.

01:07:35:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Pilots seem to think that if they can’t see a mountain because it is obscured by clouds and process not be there, but they also cannot be convinced that if it is slow, it gets 5000ft level on mountain. It is also like. So if I have time to teach you guys and if you try to fly a plane, there lives up.

01:07:54:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Now, I don’t think I have any for some reason I don’t have the data for a really good research study, but I have enough for an educated guess that the world environment makes you stub your toe against reality when you’re young. Oh, I like that. Pretty warm doesn’t. Yeah. You know Goodman, the author growing up. Absurd. Yeah. He lectured at the New School of Social Research, and he was utterly shocked to discover the disturbance there.

01:08:25:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Didn’t believe there was a nature of that. He didn’t realize how absurd that. Right, right. Oh, wow. Okay. He said that they had reporting from never. He asked him, well, in any sort of society, they would imagine, wouldn’t there be need for engineers who understood stresses and strains, and wouldn’t people get sick, need to be treated? And they said, no, it was enough to be human.

01:08:51:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That was all that was needed. Boy, now you could not grow up in a country that thinks that way because you you learn better, very quickly. That’s that’s a really I like your quote. That’s good. Rarely seen that quote. It’s from Whitman, from the New York Times. It was a in crisis in class. Is that right? That he said that I get late?

01:09:17:19 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, let’s see, you might have some thoughts that you might just want to I know you had some things written down and I don’t have what they all they all go with. Did I go with the question. Well let’s see rural versus urban. Yeah. Now that I had did you get some of that space and privacy and bringing up children so that they will know.

01:09:42:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Was it it was a nature of yeah, especially it seems to be very intelligent children who fall into that trap. They this group of social research students where they talk intellectually. Yeah. And it. Like find out who wants in Massachusetts. Yeah. I was a class I went to a little in a further of a small amount about there.

01:10:10:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So those to help give me and I climb with a man from New York who was very much annoyed because I kept telling him, look, you’re you’re getting off the trail. He thought I wasn’t interested in him because I was. I insisted on keeping my arm up, and he wanted it to be romantic. Well, not romantic. You’re. He was one of these ideals.

01:10:31:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So the ideology was that his ideas were so much more important than that trail I was. Oh, I was tempted to just let him go and follow him. We were the that little tiny mountain was all surrounded by farms, and it wasn’t really cold. And it was. It was snowing. We couldn’t have perished of thirst. And just two things kept me from warm weather.

01:11:02:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We didn’t come back at dinnertime. Every farmer in the area would be out looking for, And the other was that they also. I. For. Yeah. And I couldn’t stand that, so I kept him on the trail. That’s why first contact with the sort of person get really doesn’t believe that there is a nature of it. It’s all manipulation.

01:11:27:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Interpersonal relationships, the use of power. That’s a really big popular psychology movement, I think. Don’t you? I’m afraid, yes. Yeah. And I don’t think that you could raise a child in the country that way. No.

01:11:46:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: One advantage in the country to for a woman, she needed. Boy, that’s. I sure understand what you mean by that. One old farmer is there a that’s not very intelligent farmer? His wife died. He said he had to get him another woman quick. He could farm without a woman. So can you advertise the newspaper? He did. He got several offers.

01:12:10:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Married one of. They got some publicity on the front page. Addition to the anything maybe women did too. But by that example show where needed. Well, a city wife is an expense to her husband. Unless she works outside her home. Yeah, this woman’s business doesn’t come from a farmer. And they. They’re farmers. You’re right. You’re. That’s exactly what we’ve been finding.

01:12:40:08 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That that so many of those women don’t have any any gripe at all about whether or not they’re equal because they’re equal in the work. And there was a result. Yes. Yeah. And their husbands know that their work is important. Was there any let’s see, there were there were some period during the time your children were small that you didn’t get to be out of the home.

01:13:03:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You were just doing it? Yes, I home, we were living in town and that was hard. Was it for you? That was very frustrating. If she’d been my husband decision, I’d have left them, had that. But it wasn’t just for he didn’t command that you stay there. No. Like that, that he offered to to take care of the kids if I got a job which would pay 2000, which.

01:13:26:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Sure. But he was making, you know, the possibility of lives. What did you do? What did you do? Well, you were homeless to then keep yourself free, reduce the minimum amount of housework. With my awkwardness, that was all I could do. Tried to keep the kids clean and bad. Did you? Do you feel that you suffered? I mean, did you feel depressed a lot?

01:13:50:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes, I did, because I couldn’t be a good mother. Intervene. motherhood was the important thing. If you had to take on responsibility and motherhood. And since I had deliberately taken on the responsibility, I felt it was terrifically important. And this housework got between me and being a good mother, I couldn’t. I was too tired to pay attention to them when they needed it.

01:14:15:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That was what depressed me. If I had had an eight hour job, I could have given them much more attention. Let me. I think I’m just about to run out here and stop. If I had another one out there. Let’s see. what was I asked? Oh, you’re not finished tomorrow for sure, but you ready for it? Yeah.

01:14:39:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Tuesday. Oh. When you were staying home, she would have been less tired working eight hours a day. Yes, but as I said, as a congenial job. You see how I’m physically abnormally awkward. And if I had had some sort of job that didn’t require the physical effort, is this like a, eye hand coordination type? Yes, yes. Oh, I was naturally left handed in my coffee.

01:15:04:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. Just parents change. Strange one. And there is, there is. I think it be one way or the other. And I think there is, you know, there’s. And I think that I’m never quite forgiven, because it does seem to me that I might not have been quite so abnormally awkward if if I’d been allowed to develop it natural, even if I never said great, it just great.

01:15:30:02 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Everybody was changing them in school and. But that’s right. At least I had five years to develop some coordination. You’re are you going back to your left handed way or. Now it’s just impossible. Well, now I, I used my right hand for almost my thigh. Oh my God, I’ve never seen such a big cat. Looks like a dog.

01:15:53:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It is a beautiful cat. Well, let’s see, what else did I want to ask you? Well, you might just go on with some of your thoughts. Go. Well, let’s see here. I’ve got here questions to. I had to put things down no more or let’s say.

01:16:13:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: What happens if you’re go away? That’s me. She had guts. Enough. Not all. That’s me. Yes, but look at the other one. What is? And learn to live first to. All right. you have to. If you, Yes. With this sentiment. Yeah, I understand, yeah, it’s, you know, she said, just look back with that. Life was dirty.

01:16:39:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, that was her feeling. Oh, I know I never she was, she felt she was stifled fully. She stifled. And it also, sex was very repulsive to her.

01:16:56:21 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s for my father. That was a kind man. And then I he made my stepfather very happy. Later. but she had just very trained, so very. I can say that she. And she had no idea what she was getting in when she married.

01:17:17:26 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, I think it’s hard. Yeah, it is finding a very nice little about you and not, like, then trying to feel that everything about is filthy. Oh, it’s. It must have been horrible. And I forgot she had. How many children? Just a two to you. And then one very serious miscarriage. I suspected our age, but was it my first one that I hope she might have children?

01:17:48:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I do not know. That’s incredible. There is some news or information to the effect that sometimes they RH factor does not right to make you well, it does. Yeah. Well it kind of depends. If I hear. But I held my breath. The future. I know what I want to ask you. Let me check this battleship. Since you were, wanted to check that before your husband died in 53, 83.

01:18:23:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Do you think you didn’t write any of those other two books before that? Yes, I read from before that. You. But one of them that I wrote up often there just to pacify. He and I wrote it together. Did you? And which one was it? A murder mystery is that I. It’s really hard to tell. But you. She liked you.

01:18:44:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Sure you like it? You didn’t publish that? Well, it wasn’t that. You know, if I up up the publishable, the whole thing. Oh, no, it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a textbook. This is just the start. I don’t expect you to read 55,000 000. I have, like, the weirdest part of the parts that I did. there, I had to put in detail about character.

01:19:06:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: He read you known about him, and I could fix the thing up if I ever got around to it. I got, you should. I think that would be made the second full length book length account. Yes. Semester. Definitely interested. That’s when you said that was more cathartic verses. And then I. Summarized in a little article that was published in the Idaho Peace Officers magazine.

01:19:33:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, really? Yeah. How did how did you pick that magazine? Well, that’s the one that all the police officers in Idaho, right? Yeah. They don’t pay for their materials. Very much worth it, If you get me inside, do you go across to the high? That’s right. Because you were interested in the in the in the people that were sending kids to reform.

01:19:54:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And these were people who were sending kids to their homes, Well, I’m interested in Gene was mentioning two. First of all, did you, with your idealism and your philosophy of life, that was really there? More like our generation of on today’s ideas, did you get a lot of, criticism and what I think I said when I was working in that institution for feeble minded Massachusetts, the superintendent got a commission to go out to the three industrial states and test all.

01:20:33:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They did not allow bobcat employees at the girls industrial School. But do you remember the other thing that was a girl and I boys and bobcat. What was the whole thing? They just didn’t think it was proper. It wasn’t proper. You in a it. Well, if you had bobbed hair, why did you do it? Just because you liked it, it was easier.

01:20:52:08 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, well, everybody else at Peck, Clark and this place helped hair. And the other girl was a recent fat bastard graduated. Her hair was short. Well, matrons had to swallow was because Doctor Fernald had no mistakes. And they had this. That’s all the time we were just. Just done something physical like that. I mean, I could see that was a pretty long hair.

01:21:21:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yes. No. It’s. How about it? Well, you said peck now peck you didn’t like. Well, because it’s one of those places where they ambitious people had gotten out of the town, lost its importance. Yeah, I think it’s come back now looking for female, I see. Well, do you, have you ever noticed resentment or or, people say especially women who have spent their life in the home taking care of their kids and never experienced anything else?

01:21:56:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Do they kind of shy away from you? Are you overwhelming what they don’t? They don’t realize what kind of person they you keep it under wraps or. Yeah, just the the women here. This is a very awkward looking town. You can be yourself. Here you are. Yes. This is an oasis. But I was very introvert, very quiet about everything.

01:22:25:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. First of all, about myself. Until after I retired. I just did not talk about myself. I wouldn’t get much for $1 million or 15 years. What now? Let’s see, I think I, I maybe I didn’t get home. all your work history after you were down here, and then you. Where did you teach high school? I know I might have several places I have.

01:22:49:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Not sure that was after it, but I started that process and the children started to college. I started teaching that was that. And I had, I don’t know if I saw we two income with two kids in college, both parents and I had to say, okay, okay. I had been very critical of the schools as a psychologist. I saw how the schools in the 20s were contributing to the and and as a mother, I had been very dissatisfied with the schools.

01:23:24:17 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So I had to change. I decided I was going to find out that I started teaching at 48, and I was going to find that I was much about schools as I could. So I’m going to bounce around from one school. All right? Never stay two years in one place, And I taught at all different levels. I thought about it.

01:23:44:03 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I don’t know what was that from elementary through high school? Through college. Oh, by last 204. Here’s where it changed you WSU, WSC I know. Yeah. Up in and I had one country school but two of them I had a couple of first graders there. And I had this couple second grade and I had this whole fifth and sixth combination and so forth, had all the elementary school in between.

01:24:16:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I that’s from one level back to the other. Course. Where do you teach high school and all the levels, by the way, I thought I was talking about not having time to feel any trauma about my house, but the trauma was there. But I didn’t have time to be conscious. Yeah, I don’t think they wished on me. I had signed a contract for Home EC.

01:24:39:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Me at one time. I should both have a feminine image and so on. Top of high schools where you have to teach more than one subject. They want a woman for English in home EC. Well, I wasn’t too hard on cooking and so I was gonna child management, money management, that sort of thing. I, I thought I could give them some things that they wouldn’t get into that wasn’t too bad.

01:25:04:27 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But after I got up there the superintendents front and girls physical education. Oh, no, I wouldn’t sign the contract if I had known. So you had to teach. I had to teach. Oh, yeah. It was. It really just a trial for you? It was. Yes. And more or less turned loose or not. I love to play basketball. My basketball, my.

01:25:33:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And we survived. But you can see why. Oh, oh, I, I didn’t have time. Yeah, yeah. To notice you. Yeah. Well and, and you said in the last year you taught was it Cheney. What year was it and what was it? I’m not sure you were retired. How long? I retired at 63.

01:26:00:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We might off. You sure vacancy at at Cheney in the psychology department. And nobody wanted a temporary one year job. The professor who didn’t, who wasn’t there was only been gone for a year. So nice. Great bottom of their own. Came up with me. I after I got my certificate in Washington, I had taken psychology courses just for fun out of it.

01:26:24:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Where did you take the Cheney up and so forth. And they looked around. Yes. For us. Right. The teachers that I had had exactly guessed with me, they joined me. I have a second grade classroom. Is that right? Very glad. Let me go. Oh, she was late because they were in a rural area that was developing very fast, newly irrigated.

01:26:47:08 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They had planned for 52nd graders to hire two teachers. They got 32nd graders and they were oh so had contracts with two second grade teachers. So they weren’t happy. So they were ready? Yes. And they released me for my contract. It was only two days. I, I thought it changes like, did you like that? Yes. Much better. You don’t have to move it.

01:27:10:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I see I assume that at college level and the law doesn’t compel them to do that. Yeah, it’s up to them to motivate themselves. Yeah. I shocked and by telling so. And then the professor wanted to come home a long way around and come home for Christmas. So I thought, tell them the first quarter next to you. Oh, boy.

01:27:30:00 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And then. And then after I. And then I retired. But I taught about two courses a year. Fairchild Air Force Base psychology. Steel. Oh, for 2 or 3 years. Did you like that very much, Anderson? You just experienced that. I never had a dream. I really enjoyed those airmen. Thank you. I thought you had to explain the book to them.

01:27:51:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: They say we can read the book. Yeah. And they want to discuss it and go beyond that. And the classes were closed 25 German for myself to have. So you had a nice discussion? Yeah. Texas class. And when they disagree with something, they tell me so which is very stimulating I, I enjoyed it very much. That’s that’s neat.

01:28:15:15 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I just looked out here and saw that you did that. I wasn’t aware at first that you’ve done that. Well, what do you want? I got asked to. I guess I was going to, ask you then. Do you think things would have been much different if you would have remained married up to this time? Would you have done as much?

01:28:40:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Would you have done it? Probably. Probably. I would have thought until the kids were through college and then we would probably have gone out. You got somewhat retired. Yes. What else? You might have some other other thoughts that you had written down there too. Well, let’s see. I my life. Yeah. Look, let me ask you about that.

01:29:08:28 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You haven’t gone over much. I haven’t. Yeah, right. What what kind of differences do you see in in of course, the way you were raised and the way you raised your children, I suppose all sorts and not too many between the way I was raised, raised the children because they were both more or less rural. We had our chores.

01:29:29:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But to raise children, right, she and her husband had an awful time piling up chores on that. Now they’re in Oregon. Yes, sir. Eugene. And you don’t know. Well, Cynthia, they split your firewood. They have electric and children. Okay. And what do you, What do you see in those kids? Have you seen them often or twice a year.

01:29:55:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: What? What can you pick up? I expect your goodness feels that they would have been better off if they had had one more time out. A long time, as you put it. I think I told you to learn to get along with that, people. Yeah, yeah, that’s the thing she sees and she’s in much closer contact with, I don’t know what that brings up.

01:30:22:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You have the two children. You said you would have had more. If you have, you could have. What do you want? What do you think about, the choice or the the options now that people could either have kids or not kids. And I think it’s wonderful side. How many. And I think so honestly, we wouldn’t have had two.

01:30:40:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We might have had one more we wouldn’t have had I don’t know how much a conversation. Let’s say now, at the time you were having children, which was in the 30s, early 30s, what kind of, contraception was available with cocoa butter come up. What is it? Was the cocoa butter spermicide or, no, it was simply a blocking blockage.

01:31:04:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: You may think it’s a little involved and stuff to just give it for intercourse. Is that right? I’ve never heard of that either. I don’t say I’ve mentioned it. Members of your generation, I haven’t seen it. And it’s simply it blocks the interest. And. And then it melts eventually. Yeah. It melts at body temperature. So you don’t in danger of.

01:31:27:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, no, it disappearing somewhere in the years. And anyhow, it’s simply what they take out of chocolate to make cocoa if it went in. If you don’t want to. Thank you very much. What was that? Was that really well known to people? Let’s go. Oh, butter. Yes. And then some of those rubbers. But you have to have good quality rubbers.

01:31:49:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. If you have a little. Only one. It’s just too bad. That’s no good then. Yeah I suppose the cocoa and the cocoa butter. Was it a more satisfactory something. Did it, You mind is going. I can’t remember what I was going to say. what about by then? Were abortions with a legal. Oh, oh, they were highly illegal.

01:32:15:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It seems to me at one time there weren’t any laws against them. They weren’t? Well, I don’t know what the laws were, but, you know, I mean, we against them. Did you ever hear of such goings on or. Well, among the delightful Charles. Yes. Yeah. What do you mean, not kidding? If I think it comes out out the front door in it, or any place I just don’t know much about.

01:32:43:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: How about, I suppose then the other kind of birth control is just abstinence. It could have been. It may have been on people’s and objections for anything else. Certainly. If you were happily married, that wasn’t. Yeah. That’s true. That’s they. If you had a lot of money, you got all those intrauterine devices. They have those.

01:33:11:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, yes. They had rubber diaphragms. Yes. Yeah. We never had enough money, father. With them. Okay, I know that too. People did use that. but it still wasn’t them. Of course, there wasn’t the pill until the 1960s or so. So how? Yeah. Well, let’s see, what else do I want to do? I just want to pump you.

01:33:34:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, I’ve got you here so that I could get everything down, I guess, this isn’t really, something in the list of questions, but what are you, are we’ve talked a little bit about it. What do you think about the women’s movement and and women feeling like they’re not getting a fair deal or that I think it’s wonderful.

01:34:00:02 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah, I think sometimes like, oh, the movement, it’s overdone there. But if you’re going to get to exaggerated reactions whenever you have. But you something is long overdue. But are there things that you think would benefit your life if the, if the laws of the climate was if I could have gotten a job in the 30s.

01:34:28:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And not such a thing. See if the general feeling that weapons were somehow inferior. You. I think it carried over to the feeling of teaching somehow inferior. And actual is the best teacher should be in primary grades. Sure those kids are that same said. So then you. It seems like though you, you and your husband weren’t that extra feminine and extra masculine that you didn’t know, he was very unusual for this generation.

01:35:05:25 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I kind of married anyone who wasn’t. And I just not. I’ve never thought of remarriage because I don’t think I find another man like that in my generation. I certainly don’t. All right, men in your generation beyond appropriate for other reasons. Well, you you we just did a view of another woman this morning. And both of you, what’s similar about it was that you you’re busy and you seem independent.

01:35:35:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Even. And then we’ve interviewed some women that are at the same age that are independent and not busy. How do you think you have to be committed if something is more important than your needs? A little self, That’s good. The nice thing about retirement is that you can choose your commitments. This writing is my commitment, and I think it literally, it’s kept me alive.

01:36:02:23 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Do you? Yeah. It can be so easy when you’re tired. You just stay in bed. Yeah, and that would be literally deadly. Are your daughters apprehensive about you living so far away from them, or, I mean, I’ve, I’ve got trains. I mean, they’re not afraid for you. Oh, no, they they know. Take care of us. this is Florence.

01:36:26:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: This house, is it? Yeah. She wants to keep it. She says tired, you know, to come to for vacation. Oh, she is a rural person. And she’s stuck in the San Fernando Valley. That’s where the money is. Yeah, that’s where a veterinary is. Is. Possibilities are here. The five construction possibilities are both in the same place. But whenever she takes a vacation, she comes up here and flies him to some little mountain airstrip and fishes.

01:36:57:29 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: well, she likes to have this as a home base. Yes, ma’am. And if it were rented, she couldn’t have she herself. And I can’t stay in it any longer. Now, how much of this is what we need to have? Standard housing, which I couldn’t right otherwise? And how much is the other? I don’t know, but I proposed a great deal motivations for her.

01:37:18:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And how would you feel about, would you ever want to be in a home in a nursing or convalescent home? I have been for three days. I am almost paranoid. Did you did you feel yourself getting. I felt myself getting into that type of patient. Yeah. They feel pressure is to become dependent. That’s right, that’s exactly right.

01:37:39:16 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And I. Oh, that I can keep out of those. Yeah. Just Meals on Wheels and the nurse’s aide a marvelous that we have that up and coming I think that is too I think that people need to be able to decide whether they want to be home or not. Yeah. And you have so much more freedom in your own home.

01:38:03:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And that, that eternal pressure to become like the people who have lost their minds. Yeah. I don’t mean in sound, I mean to know how would would you feel about living in a, a complex with other people who were retired. You wouldn’t like that either. I actually, I felt like it if people my age and mass, that’s where I don’t.

01:38:31:10 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: If I can’t say that I like people my age and that’s. Yeah, that’s right, I like individuals. Oh, just some of my best friends. Goodbye. Yeah. And some of them are like, yeah. So. I like to be very good but are other great variety of ages. it would be very depressing to be in control. I think I might feel that way too.

01:38:58:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Let’s see. I guess, what else I’d like to ask you is, saint? Well, one thing we we asked several. Most of the people interview is the, the depression and World War two were. Well, how do affect you and your family? The depression starts out up there. That’s right. Yeah. We we got back to Ohio somehow over here, the great school and all that.

01:39:24:22 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I can do that. I think, but it’s a lot of work, too. Doesn’t affect me at all. My husband really wouldn’t want one. And before I knew it, ten years ago. Yeah. I mean, my first real World War one was a second cousin. My brother was two. Yeah, he was 13. And so it didn’t have to go over to my husband.

01:39:45:01 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Well, past military age, he was at the 40s. My son was the right age, but he was working with and for my goodness, very. Yeah. That’s maybe that’s true, Charlie. It was much more important than one more soldier. And I had no sons. So were divorced, didn’t really have any. Personal support. Well, how about then? More recently. What what do you think about this, this era and and what’s going on?

01:40:24:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: It’s very interesting. It’s a replay of the 20s. I wondered about that. You talked about the intellectuals and know they have a tremendous some of it about realistic and some of it’s just a commitment to science. Which we don’t have now. This generation seems to be turning away from science into all sorts of irrational creeds. Irrational greed is a good way to put it.

01:40:48:16 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Yeah. I don’t think we had so much that we had more of the the intellectual were either following H.L. Mencken and trying to tear down the Victorian structure, which needed tearing down. It got a little too thorough, or they were devoted to science. Do you see, the political, I guess, the same. we we were we were lectured to about the hazards of smoking.

01:41:20:18 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And once we detected the moralistic tone and there really were no data. We, dismissed it. I didn’t smoke, I didn’t like, except socially disapprove. I thought, you were right, but.

01:41:40:05 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: There was that same high as George smoking that there is now for marijuana. Yeah, yeah. The evidence against tobacco didn’t come in for another generation. I don’t know, but, hey, what’s the evidence? We have a marijuana adventure so far. It’s not too damning, but I don’t know either. Well, I was the other, like I did drugs. we had things like gin.

01:42:06:12 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I grew up in Columbus, so only two of us. We didn’t get another bootlegger or have a recipe for making it so that one versus Mary Mercier I mentioned. She had grown up next door, her livery stable, but her father, and then she had seen drugs. It was not romantic to get drunk.

01:42:26:24 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: And I had the beginnings of a thyroid deficiency coming on, so I didn’t have enough energy. Yeah, I see, but the others. Oh. Went in for bootleg liquor, either homemade or bootleg, and sometimes it was adulterated with the word alcohol. Got killed. What’s sometimes your drugs now are in the form of things are replay is. So it must seem so familiar to you.

01:42:54:14 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: But what do you what do you see as the outcome in that? Well, with the Americans have a way of making a pendulum swing. Yeah, it’s a swing back. And are you are you at all you know, do you worry about, say, your daughters and their children? Well, I worry about possible atomic war. Yeah, that’s a very real dangerous and.

01:43:23:07 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: That’s. That’s that’s something that one has any control. Sure you can’t. I think if it starts, it’ll start with some crazy man. or some of those countries or some. And now they’re. It’s possible to, hijack the material. Make your own, isn’t it? Yes, yes. No, not at all. Oh, okay. Well, do you have do you have anything written down on here that we didn’t cover?

01:43:56:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I think so. Well, then I guess, my one of my last things I’d like to ask, is there anything that you just feel you’d like to say? Any advice or any feelings that you have about the way your life has been? Remember Robert Frost from the past? Not taken. Yeah. I mean, if I had five, six months to that, I would have got a job at Stanford just helping Terman with this gifted child study.

01:44:23:06 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: When was it? well, I just, looked up because I wondered if he was the person who got the job I applied for after she got it. She was. Well, she was. She’s not only senior officer in charge of the term study. And I just wonder if could get it all right, I guess so that that’s. Yeah.

01:44:47:13 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: I wonder. I wish I could have been twins, so you could do twice as much tests. I haven’t had a great attitude. And like, I had intended to take the summer off back around the refrigerators here and there, that sort of thing, and then go to Stanford that, And then I met Bob that he rented. So that was ready for you or he was there.

01:45:13:09 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: He was pretty even almost 40. I was almost 30. That if I hadn’t met, he and I would eventually have gone to Stanford and it would have been quite different. But I would miss some very fascinating experiences. I’m not really regretful. I do wish I’d been twins. I want to tell the time later. Book on the take.

01:45:33:19 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: So we’re learning what this restraints on excellence and the subtitle will be our Waste of Good for children, and I think it will be published in later this spring. I hope the pressure is ready to go that as soon as I get these permissions. When you write to us some rewriting one, let us know where we can get a copy.

01:45:54:11 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: We then we can put it in the archives with your take pictures. Well, I can send you a copy. I’m sure I’m selling directly. Most good. Then sell it to the center. And the poor people in Moscow only charge at 20%. They only have 20%. That’s a good price, I like it. Yes, and the college bookstore here only wants 20% of a commercial bookstore for 40 years.

01:46:20:04 - Cathy Naugle or Millie (Martha) Burroughs: Oh, well. And I expect to lose money on this thing. But I don’t want someone else to make that much money. Well, this is this is so great. I think I’ve got so much on this tape. What I usually do is go over again and then think about the things I did. Yes.