Jackson, Clem Interviews [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:08 Hal Riegger: Yes, it’s going. This is for my own identification. This is August 8th, 1983, and Clarkston, Washington. And I’m talking with Vern Jackson. What exactly is the nature of your job with the Kansas Prairie crew?

00:00:23:10 - 00:00:43:00 Verne Jackson: My job was I’m retired now, but my job was the final job as ordered through the Cameron Prairie. It’s been 36 years. And, counting department with a camera crew located in Lewiston, Idaho. During those years, I worked from the bottom job to the top job as auditor.

00:00:43:14 - 00:00:45:14 Hal Riegger: what’s the difference in bottom?

00:00:45:16 - 00:01:17:12 Verne Jackson: Well, the bottom job is. And, you start out as a car record. Kirk. And then you advance up the various stages of accounting, more advanced stages of accounting, and then you finally get to the top, like, top job in, right in, union jobs is, general accounting, which handles all the financial books, the, all the bank statement, all the tax statements.

00:01:17:15 - 00:01:23:16 Verne Jackson: And that is handled by the general accounting and, I would.

00:01:23:18 - 00:01:25:27 Hal Riegger: You you write the checks or sign.

00:01:25:27 - 00:01:47:21 Verne Jackson: Right outside of your sign, general account and sign the checks that the auditor that signs the checks and, they have the timekeeper to make out the checks on computer. Now, they used to do it all by hand, but now it’s done. The,

00:01:47:24 - 00:01:50:23 Hal Riegger: You’re not responsible for that money, though, are you?

00:01:50:25 - 00:01:54:04 Verne Jackson: Yes. Oh, you are as auditor. You’re responsible for,

00:01:54:06 - 00:01:57:07 Hal Riegger: You have to account for everything, right?

00:01:57:10 - 00:02:37:29 Verne Jackson: In accounting firm in the accounting department. Is is on the ICC standard. booking. ICC bookkeeping methods. Well, I’m just, driving by the government and, until a, took the, restrictions off and on the railroads, we had government auditors coming in, checked our accounting, our method to accounting, and, and, make sure that we were doing it right.

00:02:38:02 - 00:03:32:02 Verne Jackson: The accounting part of it is, on the Camas Prairie in five districts. The district from our period to Lewiston is the vision a and from Lewiston to, arrow, Idaho. it’s district B, district C runs from arrow Idaho to our finger to headquarters is all in Division C. Division D starts at barley, which is is, 8.8 miles from Lewiston, where branches off and goes to Greensboro is district D from our at to states is Division E and Division F is in Lewiston yards where the switching is done.

00:03:32:05 - 00:03:50:09 Verne Jackson: And of course all the accounting is done, the expenses is done by the districts and the expenses are spread on the farm miles made by the berries by the company to companies.

00:03:50:11 - 00:03:56:21 Hal Riegger: I was gonna ask about that. Do they share in the cost of operating the railroad equally or.

00:03:56:25 - 00:04:34:22 Verne Jackson: No, it’s it’s split on, And now, log traffic is, split 5050. Each company produces the same amount of log guns, and, each company produces the same amount of locomotives. So the log expense, which is a load originating on the canvas prairie and terminating on a Cameron Berry, are split on a 5050 basis while, commercial loads such as lumber, wheat, machinery is all split on car miles made by each company.

00:04:34:24 - 00:04:50:16 Verne Jackson: In other words, we keep track of the car miles that each company runs on commercial cars. And, the miles that they run over these very, five districts is, is split on their mileage in is paid. Expenses are paid on that.

00:04:50:19 - 00:04:55:01 Hal Riegger: What determines whose cars are used for this kind of shipment?

00:04:56:03 - 00:05:09:09 Verne Jackson: they’re they, each company they order from each company the number of cars that they need. And, the shipper specifies on the commercial loads what company you want.

00:05:09:09 - 00:05:11:10 Hal Riegger: You mean your pier or rent?

00:05:11:10 - 00:05:12:17 Verne Jackson: An Oregon.

00:05:13:01 - 00:05:14:12 Hal Riegger: shipper can specify that.

00:05:14:14 - 00:05:16:08 Verne Jackson: Right? You can specify that.

00:05:16:10 - 00:05:22:13 Hal Riegger: The shippers desire is are partly responsible for what money each company earns.

00:05:22:13 - 00:05:24:02 Verne Jackson: That’s correct. That is correct.

00:05:24:22 - 00:05:30:13 Hal Riegger: does it generally even out pretty well, or is there noticeable imbalance or.

00:05:30:16 - 00:06:00:25 Verne Jackson: Well, it was commercial car there wasn’t in balance to, Burlington Northern when they, was coming in from Spokane and Arrow. Well, had, considerable advantage, but they no longer do that. They, come in and repair you the same as you. U.P. and and, since I retired, I don’t know whether Pacific amount, but it was running at the time.

00:06:01:14 - 00:06:12:10 Verne Jackson: I left over there about 54% and, 46% U.P. but, that could change. it might be different now.

00:06:12:17 - 00:06:18:14 Hal Riegger: When you don’t have any, do you have any say in determining how money is to be spent?

00:06:19:26 - 00:06:48:23 Verne Jackson: only, no, I don’t, in addition, we mean, regards to improvement on the railroad. yeah. Our salaries, manager’s office, any new, mailings or, additions has to go through both companies for their improvement. The manager author submits, an RFA, which stands for, request for.

00:06:48:25 - 00:06:52:28 Verne Jackson: 38.

00:06:53:00 - 00:06:54:01 Hal Riegger: Yeah. Okay.

00:06:54:03 - 00:07:21:17 Verne Jackson: All right, I read this form request for authority to build whatever they want to be or or the, for example, if they have white timber in a bridge and they want to put black, this is an increase in valuation. They have to take this, RFA first and then it goes to an RFP. And that’s your authority for expenditure, which RFP stands for.

00:07:21:19 - 00:07:43:29 Verne Jackson: And, it has to come from the president. The valuation part of it is handled by the Burlington Northern in Saint Paul for their property and their property they own from Lewiston. Everything is that from Lewiston? Everything last belongs to the University of Vienna.

00:07:44:00 - 00:07:47:00 Hal Riegger: Owns all of three like to Greensboro.

00:07:47:01 - 00:08:03:14 Verne Jackson: Right. And, they’re in their valuation. And, the Union Pacific owns 72 out of the Canada three, owns, 72 miles down the river. And, all the structures that’s on it.

00:08:06:08 - 00:08:36:11 Verne Jackson: And, after the figures are expenses are all figured. They have a settlement account and, camas prairie grass, grass for these expenditure on most companies and, whatever. these car mileage percentages are the drafts are drawn to that and money to take care of the, of the expenses.

00:08:36:14 - 00:08:43:15 Hal Riegger: A lot of car repairs, rolling stock. Is that paid for by the cameras? Prairie?

00:08:44:03 - 00:09:11:06 Verne Jackson: repairs on rolling stock done in Lewiston is charged. it’s minor. Is charged operating expenses here in Lewiston. If it’s a major, changing incident or our quarterly or yearly report, here to test their said in Spokane Park water. And, some of them are sent to Omaha and, sent off the line. Omaha. Oh, right.

00:09:11:11 - 00:09:26:25 Verne Jackson: Yeah. And, for their test and and if it’s, if it’s one of their locomotives, if it’s, Union Pacific locomotive and it’s a quarterly cash and it’s down on the Union Pacific property, that’s their cost.

00:09:26:25 - 00:09:27:27 Hal Riegger: Yeah. Okay.

00:09:27:29 - 00:09:37:09 Verne Jackson: Yeah, but minor repairs are chargeable over here to, to operating expenses, which is spread on the mileage basis.

00:09:37:12 - 00:09:52:14 Hal Riegger: During your term with the company. Had there been any, brief, may have been any basic changes in the way you handled your work? As there been a difference in the monetary policy of the company?

00:09:52:17 - 00:10:31:05 Verne Jackson: Not in, monetary policy. The changes have come. when I first went to work in April 3rd, 1948, they had, 16 or 17 in the accounting department and the department that I was employed, the in the accounting department, everything was, more detail. And there, both companies were, very strong. following the contract is written by the the two companies.

00:10:31:10 - 00:10:32:27 Hal Riegger: I read the original consideration.

00:10:32:27 - 00:10:35:06 Verne Jackson: No contract is that. And, are you.

00:10:35:06 - 00:10:38:20 Hal Riegger: Implying that they don’t quite follow this precisely? No.

00:10:38:22 - 00:11:02:10 Verne Jackson: Well, they’re not as not as required as they were. In other words, the accounting department is to, other Camas Prairie is to, treat both companies equally, but, I mean, show no partiality. While you might have feelings that you like one company better than the other, it is, it absolutely cannot.

00:11:02:13 - 00:11:04:00 Hal Riegger: No, no, no, no.

00:11:04:03 - 00:11:13:16 Verne Jackson: It, it was, very, very strict when I first went to work at you, you didn’t show any partiality.

00:11:13:19 - 00:11:23:05 Hal Riegger: Could you, think of an example where the event shows that relaxing of of the rigid interference to those rules?

00:11:23:07 - 00:11:29:18 Verne Jackson: Well, it,

00:11:29:21 - 00:11:34:03 Verne Jackson: It,

00:11:34:06 - 00:12:07:04 Verne Jackson: In the reports that are submitted, to to the to the companies. Yeah, a lot of them have been a lot of them have been deleted. It should be have been continued further protection of both companies. it, like I said, these area fees, for example, both companies should be informed when, when, billing is being built or, structure being retired.

00:12:07:07 - 00:12:29:01 Verne Jackson: Most companies should be, informed of dollars, where these are near, on, van property, which is everything east of Lewiston. the Union Pacific is unaware which, van is doing in a way of building.

00:12:29:04 - 00:12:42:28 Hal Riegger: Well, I the question comes to my mind since these counts are handled separately, I got there. You pay me. what’s the difference of you doesn’t know. Well, how’s it going to affect them?

00:12:43:00 - 00:13:01:03 Verne Jackson: Well, are they. They’re paying. Going to pay your rent on, they pay a percentage. Grant Branham on the properties. and, and, and valuation and, and not only that, but it’s,

00:13:01:05 - 00:13:02:05 Bill Clem: The tax.

00:13:02:08 - 00:13:13:17 Verne Jackson: Problem, and they, the Union Pacific is, is not aware of, some of the taxes that they’re getting absorbing that they shouldn’t have there.

00:13:13:19 - 00:13:26:24 Hal Riegger: I don’t quite understand if being owns the lines east of Lewiston, you pay owns the line to repair. You. I still can’t answer that because of this.

00:13:27:20 - 00:13:43:29 Verne Jackson: split in in, way. They split the expenses. The tax expense, for example, is split on miles. and, and, the Union Pacific, consequently, is being, hooked, the mileage.

00:13:44:02 - 00:13:44:22 Hal Riegger: Well, sir, it’s.

00:13:44:22 - 00:14:17:07 Verne Jackson: The same way is another thing is that, we’re used to fuel locomotives out in the East Laughlin yard after they made a down river run. Yeah, our locomotives for now, the Union Pacific fields are Matt Hinkle and, they got a big viewing yard at Hancock, and, we have they have no way. it’s supposed to be metered fuel, and they have no way of metering Camas Prairie fuel down there.

00:14:17:07 - 00:14:27:10 Verne Jackson: They could use an engine all day and then put fuel at it and charge it to the canvas prairie. Consequently, the band would be paying part of the fuel.

00:14:27:12 - 00:14:30:02 Hal Riegger: Don’t they have a meter on with their float system?

00:14:30:02 - 00:14:58:14 Verne Jackson: They, Well, they could take one of these U.P. Jeep nine units and while it’s down there and use it all day and then fill it up and charge it to the drain that took it down there. Day 59 frame. And, and they have done that and used it in switching service. Well, consequently the band den is paying whatever that additional fuel is for that engine being used down there.

00:14:58:16 - 00:15:06:02 Hal Riegger: And had been. No, that is up. No, that and much so what’s their feeling toward each other when things like that happen?

00:15:06:05 - 00:15:11:09 Verne Jackson: Well, I’m sure that, Debbie and I made him aware of it.

00:15:12:06 - 00:15:44:16 Verne Jackson: And there’s a lot of correspondence on that particular thing, and that was just an example. Yeah, yeah, I know for, how things are and, as far as relaxing, the rules, since 1972, the air fees handled by the manager’s office, it got, where they go to the parent company for, that and they turn them down.

00:15:44:16 - 00:15:57:14 Verne Jackson: So they figure what it used to go on. They’d go ahead and do it and build it and, not not, get an RFP or approval for either company. And,

00:15:57:16 - 00:16:05:12 Hal Riegger: Where these such things as this that were turned down by the parent company, but they’re really justified. Yes. Oh, yeah. We turned it down.

00:16:05:13 - 00:16:13:14 Verne Jackson: Well, they they got so many, that, they just delay them and delay them. And it’s kind of a wear out proposition.

00:16:13:14 - 00:16:15:28 Hal Riegger: But these were necessary to the operation of the railroad.

00:16:16:02 - 00:16:39:24 Verne Jackson: I would say that all the buildings, it was built by the manager, did they? They didn’t have authority to build were possibly necessary. and they should have, should have been granted in everything. But, in the accounting field, the contract prescribes that they get the authority prior to doing the work. And in order when they don’t do it.

00:16:39:27 - 00:17:11:03 Verne Jackson: And the valuation is handled by the Burlington Northern and, it, these new figures of building is section houses and two houses and, and, pieces of equipment are not put on the valuation rolls and they’re not paying taxes on and, they are subject, to, stiffer penalties from the state of Idaho or the state of washing, whatever might be there.

00:17:11:05 - 00:17:50:24 Verne Jackson: Fortunately, there was none in Washington. That’s all in Idaho. And, I, just prior to retire and I retired in March of 1982, in, September of 81. I’ve got a list, from the Burlington Northern Valuation Department. requesting all the valuation on the Camas Prairie. it’s an east of everything east of Lewiston. And, I, knew of several buildings that were built and no authority to build them.

00:17:50:27 - 00:18:17:07 Verne Jackson: And these buildings amount to thousands of dollars and what if the auditor of the company is responsible for all the cash, money, then, and he’s signing the tax statements verifying that the taxes are correct and true. Yeah. And when you know, you’re they’re not, then you have to do something about it. And this is what I did.

00:18:17:07 - 00:18:34:27 Verne Jackson: And, in September I got the valuation and December hardwood and I inventoried all the property, and there was 16 different items, either retirements or additions that had to be corrected. And, because.

00:18:35:00 - 00:18:39:07 Hal Riegger: They just can’t go into the book. No, no, no, but,

00:18:39:09 - 00:19:18:29 Verne Jackson: They they in February, they requested these appeals and they, Brought everything tax wise. But if this happened back in, they started back in 72. Well, it’s years the tax statements have not been correct in the state of Idaho. And if they came in and did an on site inspection of all the valuation on the taxes, why, the fellow that signed the papers lied in his statement to the taxes.

00:19:18:29 - 00:19:20:10 Verne Jackson: It was correct when he knew there was.

00:19:20:17 - 00:19:22:04 Hal Riegger: No,

00:19:22:07 - 00:19:39:29 Verne Jackson: That’s why I say they relaxed in the contract and, and, I’m sure that, thing has been corrected, instructed not to do it, but they still are. I understand they’re still doing it.

00:19:40:10 - 00:20:06:02 Hal Riegger: you mentioned some things. Can you think of others that, in the accounting area and the handling of money, such as you do? that are noticeably different from that of other single railroads? Like just you pay by itself? Yeah. so what I’m driving at is everybody says, well, this is a very unique railroad because two companies own it.

00:20:06:05 - 00:20:10:11 Hal Riegger: And I’m trying to pin down some of the things that really make it unique. Yeah.

00:20:10:13 - 00:20:45:15 Verne Jackson: Well, it’s, accounting. what makes it easy is that, the, all expenses are divided. The district setting and the method in which we do it is makes it unique. And, the, Log revenues, like I say, is split here. The only revenues, actually, the Camas Prairie gas is lodge originating on the campus prairie touching, logging and terminating on the Cameron Prairie.

00:20:45:17 - 00:21:00:05 Verne Jackson: And this is, all charts show revenues. Yeah. And they are split on the, on a 5050 basis if it’s logs. It was a commercial road. It’s based on the miles that, that these roads travel.

00:21:00:14 - 00:21:21:02 Hal Riegger: as the county’s prairie railroad being owned by then and then pay, this revenue that derives from, line business is then divided between the European and the end. Right. Because it isn’t Camas Prairie Railroad, after all is and that’s the.

00:21:21:02 - 00:21:37:11 Verne Jackson: Enemy and and Union Pacific. Yeah. And and Klamath Prairie owns no rolling stock. The only equipment that they own is their work equipment, such as motor cars. Yeah. And they are capitalized.

00:21:37:16 - 00:21:41:03 Hal Riegger: Yeah. And, who pays for those when they get a new one? Or they can.

00:21:41:07 - 00:21:42:18 Verne Jackson: Operate. Pays for those.

00:21:42:18 - 00:21:45:12 Hal Riegger: Yeah. The canvas prairie is burning up.

00:21:45:18 - 00:21:52:27 Verne Jackson: Right. But the Klamath prairie, they are in cameras Prairie. account.

00:21:52:29 - 00:21:58:22 Hal Riegger: So there’s a separate account there. That right here is Prairie that is not there. Are not you pay.

00:21:58:23 - 00:22:09:09 Verne Jackson: You raise a Camas Prairie account. And then that is that was, work equipment such as, motor cars, shovels. Man, I’m sure.

00:22:09:13 - 00:22:10:12 Hal Riegger: It’s the way.

00:22:10:14 - 00:22:38:22 Verne Jackson: The way equipment is owned by the cameras. Prairie. And they, they have we pay, interest on those amount of money. Advanced. We get the advances to buy the equipment from both companies. Both companies pay equally on the equipment. Yeah. And, we pay interest. The same amount of interest to each company for their share of work equipment.

00:22:38:24 - 00:22:44:29 Verne Jackson: And, that’s how that is handled. That’s your own equipment that the camera’s very accurate, and that is.

00:22:45:02 - 00:22:48:09 Hal Riegger: That really is the Camas Prairie Railroad. Right? That’s the way.

00:22:48:14 - 00:22:49:04 Verne Jackson: The maintenance of.

00:22:49:04 - 00:22:50:14 Hal Riegger: Works in.

00:22:50:17 - 00:22:58:05 Verne Jackson: And, they don’t own any buildings. you know, one company or the other owns the buildings.

00:23:00:05 - 00:23:27:02 Hal Riegger: looks like an ass. Oh, it’s I’ve heard the same very forcefully several days ago that I don’t know if I can phrase this the way the person did or said this, but that Lewiston has tried many times from, say, old Road Johnston on this railroad south of here. That’s about three miles and fizzles out. Joseph.

00:23:27:07 - 00:23:28:16 Verne Jackson: Johnson yeah.

00:23:28:16 - 00:23:57:18 Hal Riegger: Well, let me let me finish this. I’ve tried various games. They brought Potlatch in here and as I understand, gave Potlatch some land to come here and didn’t know anything about, temperature inversion. And what a stink that thing would make after a while. But the the upshot of all this was that the city of Boston has tried various ways to make itself an important center and has failed in each case.

00:23:57:20 - 00:24:04:15 Hal Riegger: But now they’ve got a port here. how much business is the port doing? I don’t know. What’s your response to that?

00:24:04:17 - 00:24:05:06 Verne Jackson: Well.

00:24:05:09 - 00:24:09:25 Hal Riegger: They’re never really going to make it kind of,

00:24:09:27 - 00:24:13:17 Verne Jackson: I,

00:24:13:19 - 00:24:36:23 Verne Jackson: I firmly believe the railroad will be here a long time after the port is gone. And, and, the railroad has made the company and that, it’s going to be here. They if they while they are getting quite a few loads of wheat and that out, I, I can’t see how the, the railroad will ever be phased out of here.

00:24:37:16 - 00:25:00:13 Verne Jackson: and matter of fact, you look at places like Pasco and, the business of the railroad increased tremendous down there, even with the Port Authority. Yeah. And, here we have three port districts in a two mile area. We have, port a Louis. The important part in, in Porter. Wilma. All three within a two mile area.

00:25:00:15 - 00:25:32:10 Verne Jackson: And, I can’t see how three port districts can survive and and do justice if they wasn’t subsidized by the taxpayer. Yeah, they wouldn’t be in business. Yeah. And, the one at Lewiston is mostly, they are handling some, container, some container shipments. and, they’re handling wheat, and grain. but, I, I firmly agree with the unit train system.

00:25:32:10 - 00:25:47:23 Verne Jackson: That’s if the railroads try and get, rates, down far below the, the cost of truckers and, and the barge that they will be shipping all their grain for the railroad one of these days.

00:25:47:23 - 00:25:53:26 Hal Riegger: What about this, new train that arrived last summer? A year ago, 26 cars. Was it 20.

00:25:53:26 - 00:25:54:26 Verne Jackson: Six, unit three.

00:25:54:26 - 00:25:55:22 Hal Riegger: As that worked.

00:25:55:22 - 00:26:20:07 Verne Jackson: Out? Yeah, well, I having retired, and next year, I had high hopes that it would continue. And I think they have got, several 26 car grain unit trains out. But again, the market. Yeah. That goes along with the market. Yeah. The farmers, they want to hold that wheat as long as they can to get the money if the government subsidized it.

00:26:20:07 - 00:26:30:07 Verne Jackson: Yeah, right. But when they want to sell it, they want cars right now. And, it takes a while to put it together. 22 you in the car trade?

00:26:30:10 - 00:26:31:12 Hal Riegger: Yeah.

00:26:31:15 - 00:26:59:24 Verne Jackson: And I think that, the railroad has been and will always be one of the backbone of the nation, disturbs me a little at, the economy that they’ve cut back so much on their employees and their maintenance of their tracks, not only on the cameras Prairie, but on the mainline. the been in the piece and, channeling the money into their whole income.

00:27:00:03 - 00:27:03:21 Verne Jackson: Yeah. Was. And there’s no question that they’re doing that. Yeah.

00:27:03:23 - 00:27:15:02 Hal Riegger: About railroads all over. I think everybody.

00:27:15:20 - 00:27:22:23 Hal Riegger: roughly how many employees does the railroad have?

00:27:23:07 - 00:27:26:27 Verne Jackson: temporary.

00:27:26:29 - 00:27:37:12 Verne Jackson: Has, has had as high as 300. all right, now, I would say is estimated to be probably around 180.

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:42:03 Verne Jackson: As maintenance way train crews.

00:27:42:05 - 00:27:42:25 Hal Riegger: The whole work.

00:27:42:25 - 00:27:44:01 Verne Jackson: All their homework.

00:27:44:01 - 00:27:51:07 Hal Riegger: So, would you have any idea of the total annual cost of running the railroad.

00:27:51:09 - 00:27:53:19 Verne Jackson: Has a little over $2 million.

00:27:53:21 - 00:28:02:28 Hal Riegger: You know, 2 million. what is their operating ratio? Do you know that operating ratio?

00:28:05:21 - 00:28:11:20 Hal Riegger: For every dollar spent. And how much does it cost them? I mean, how much they make.

00:28:11:23 - 00:28:33:28 Verne Jackson: For that. That I couldn’t give you because of, the only thing that I can give you is on, railroads originating in Germany. The business originated from Germany. actual money, the logic go off the line. I have no no way of knowing that. I would have no way of knowing what it is, but it’s,

00:28:34:01 - 00:28:41:10 Verne Jackson: All right, I presume it’s pretty lucrative business for both companies.

00:28:42:04 - 00:28:45:24 Verne Jackson: running a read on my revenues, not taking care of expenses.

00:28:45:27 - 00:28:47:05 Hal Riegger: But they pulled out again.

00:28:47:09 - 00:29:10:06 Verne Jackson: Yeah, and paid that back, right? I never yes, you borrow money and you pay it back. Yeah, yeah. You draw graphs from both companies and, whenever, money runs down, you draw a graph. Yeah. And then you pay it back when business picks up, right? Yeah. And,

00:29:10:09 - 00:29:18:19 Hal Riegger: There doesn’t seem to be any reason for financial reasons to ever think of terminating the operation that they.

00:29:18:21 - 00:29:56:04 Verne Jackson: Well, that I would say, business on the line such as, Gainesville has only one male operating. now. And what, only, right now they’ve only got one trainer run the Grange. Well, and I don’t know the exact number of bridges, but they’re numerous bridges, and the cost of maintenance to that line is so great that, it wouldn’t surprise me to see that line be, be terminated.

00:29:56:04 - 00:30:11:02 Verne Jackson: Yeah, yeah, far as the headquarters and, cameo line there, it will cost as much. It’s good load of lumber and, not so much grain, but lumber products.

00:30:12:19 - 00:30:39:20 Verne Jackson: And, for the male of JP and what a male it can be, I and, and chips coming out of cameo. They’re hauling chips from cameo to the coast, and, that I look for that line, and, that line never grows out of the Greenville is a doubt because of the with bridge, the terrain that they have to go and the power that it takes to go there.

00:30:39:23 - 00:30:45:04 Verne Jackson: They used to have a train, every day. Your grade.

00:30:45:12 - 00:30:46:05 Hal Riegger: Yeah.

00:30:46:08 - 00:31:00:08 Verne Jackson: Then they got to run the three days a week, and now it’s once a week. And, how they can, justify the expense of their Bridges of Madison. And that is, is beyond me.

00:31:00:11 - 00:31:10:06 Hal Riegger: Yeah. When I first came up here, they’re running two trains. Now, let me run into, it’s. I don’t know.

00:31:10:06 - 00:31:47:05 Verne Jackson: How many cars you’re getting off the map. off of Grange. Yeah, I don’t know. Tomorrow, if we go up there, we’ll know how many their empties are taken out, and, I went out there and been on inventory of material, and, they, have, had cars as high as 30 or 40 cars, and they were station like Cottingham or Craig, Mont Ferdinand and Stefan would have 15, 20 cars and it and I don’t think they’ve had a car in a van for the last five years.

00:31:47:08 - 00:31:59:11 Verne Jackson: And, so it’s, it’s, just some business. Do you see these towns? You see no cars sitting there where you used to see it. And, it’s kind of disturbing.

00:31:59:14 - 00:32:03:19 Hal Riegger: That’s because the resources, the the forest so petered out.

00:32:03:24 - 00:32:08:05 Verne Jackson: No, no, this is great. I’m talking about a great on the very well while.

00:32:08:09 - 00:32:10:05 Hal Riegger: That’s because the truckers are getting it.

00:32:10:05 - 00:32:40:23 Verne Jackson: All right. The factories are getting business in there, and they’re barge in it. And, now, that’s why I say if these, if this 26 car rate for 26 car unit trains or great, it becomes low enough that the railroad can run a train up, pick up 26 carload, you once again see, a lot of activity and, and then again, the market place and and partners.

00:32:40:23 - 00:32:49:16 Verne Jackson: The grain is kind of cool. Off market is good. And, farmers will sell, and a lot of them will hold on for higher prices and don’t care.

00:32:49:19 - 00:32:50:17 Hal Riegger: Yeah.

00:32:50:19 - 00:33:00:27 Verne Jackson: So it’s it’s, kind of, game, you know, and it. Hard to tell.

00:33:01:00 - 00:33:13:15 Hal Riegger: This concludes the interviews with Vern Jackson. For the time being, at least.

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:40:13 Hal Riegger: There’s gonna be pictures, but, to include some personal things in the book, like experiences, personal experiences and so on, is more what I’m after than, description of of the management or anything like that. You know, but as as train master. What what were your duties? What what was your job like?

00:33:40:16 - 00:34:00:06 Bill Clem: On the campus Prairie, railroad, pretty much removed from a range of jobs were combined, commodity job. normally when, the transcontinental railroad. Yeah. Normally on the big railroads, the parent company just put it that way, like the U.P..

00:34:00:07 - 00:34:01:18 Hal Riegger: Or you don’t have to for.

00:34:01:18 - 00:34:43:28 Bill Clem: Okay. Or the old nor the Pacific. route one of engines was the man was in charge of Indian crews and motive power almost exclusively. I mean, he didn’t have, too much to do with, the actual train operations or the shipping or the loading of cars using would get the motor power to make sure the motor power was in good operating condition, you know, to qualify, engineers for various aspects of the railroad, like, for passenger service or mountain grain operation.

00:34:43:28 - 00:34:48:25 Hal Riegger: Or you had to sort of pass on them as as a profession does not work.

00:34:48:25 - 00:35:27:08 Bill Clem: Right now. And also, the road foreman, promoted. I mean, at that time, the engineers, you know, and only, very seldom was a matter on their lesson. Well, several years before he was promoted engineer, however, with the new engineer training programs and their modules similar to like training in the Air Force and so forth, well, they can simulate, oh aspects of handling an engine would long train moderate, high speed, low speed braking, and they can simulate all that.

00:35:27:08 - 00:35:41:26 Bill Clem: And consequently these boys now and women not only board men and women, both employees normally would go through this, training in the, in the Navy days or.

00:35:41:27 - 00:35:51:10 Hal Riegger: Engineer like flight simulator would be a train simulator. They do that now for Camis Prairie.

00:35:51:13 - 00:36:14:17 Bill Clem: Not necessarily for the cameras parade, but for, the bulletin board learning and updates. But the thing to remember here, no, the cams Prairie is a very unique operation. James Prairie is nothing more than an operating company for the whole Northern Pacific. Now, the Burlington and Union Pacific.

00:36:14:20 - 00:36:32:20 Bill Clem: The crews, the operating crew, exclusive of Switzerland, are furnished by the private company. The. You brakeman, conductors, engineers and firemen, when necessary for all the for the lines west of Lewiston.

00:36:32:23 - 00:36:33:27 Hal Riegger: Just down to repair or.

00:36:33:27 - 00:37:10:02 Bill Clem: Just to repair. The Burlington Northern furnishes engineers and when necessary conductors and brakeman all the lines east of Lewis, which includes your first, second and fourth subdivisions. So, I did mention exclusive, switch me switch from our Sony camera for any product they do not they do not hold seniority. Away from, the, temporary.

00:37:10:05 - 00:37:35:04 Bill Clem: They walked in the same way with the car. Government branches, the machinist and clerks are all solely camera free men. The section, the bridge group operating perhaps the these first. We all come from the company. So consequently, when you ask, do you think if I became a free man in that not as kind of premium, but as was not the boys?

00:37:35:04 - 00:37:37:29 Bill Clem: Yes. I want you to say.

00:37:38:01 - 00:37:48:27 Hal Riegger: Well, formally, when you have to pass on somebody who, wanted was in line to be an engineer, what did you actually do with that person?

00:37:48:29 - 00:37:59:02 Bill Clem: Okay. To start with, The man was supposed to have had,

00:37:59:04 - 00:38:26:22 Bill Clem: X number of miles on the main line of, the, oh, three miles involved. I cannot remember, you know, I’ll pay a little, there’s a heavy, mainline firm, predominantly in freight service. And like I say, he can probably accumulate those miles within a matter of, a year and a half year to a year and a half.

00:38:27:29 - 00:39:01:23 Bill Clem: then. during the course, depending on whether he was working, you some engineers better than others as far as letting the farm run engine or teaching them or taking the time to get them, give them a little actual experience in handling the trains. But then they they went through a, an examination for. I don’t know how far back you want to go.

00:39:01:25 - 00:39:28:01 Bill Clem: The steam engines, of course. Yes. We had we had the boys injectors, water pump speed 1.2 and stokers. And the aspect of the locomotive. How to repair the locomotive, what you’re doing. Here’s a breakdown. It was quite an extensive mechanical examination. And then it was even more so on the air brakes. You had to know the full flow there.

00:39:28:03 - 00:39:33:20 Bill Clem: You do. From the time when we sucked in the compressor until it was discharged to the breakdown.

00:39:33:22 - 00:39:39:21 Hal Riegger: That they they didn’t have to necessarily be able to make those repairs, did they? or they did.

00:39:39:21 - 00:40:11:04 Bill Clem: That one time. Yes. You we we had to get out there and take the boxes or get down and, and, replace the resellers and, with these little referees with a, a monkey wrench, a ham. And the cultures are essentially the only tools you had and and, However, I didn’t start railroading the 1940. I don’t believe we were going to play them all hands.

00:40:11:04 - 00:40:35:15 Bill Clem: All but I did. I had fired a lot of steam, and I shoulder and one heck of a lot of coal. I fired a lot of stokers, for the high speed passenger train, the steam engine. I run, the steam engines, all the steam. Any normal Pacific around from that was still running in 1940. Oh, well, I ran all those locomotives, freight and passenger.

00:40:35:18 - 00:41:06:15 Bill Clem: And, then when the diesel boom started, group came. We’ll I was right in between farmer and engineer back and forth sometimes and we set up as an engineer sometimes with them and so forth. But but actually getting back to your original question, the air generation were far more demanding and exactly the mechanical aspects of it, just not to me.

00:41:06:15 - 00:41:13:01 Hal Riegger: I mean, bricks, of course, are darn important. Why was that more important?

00:41:13:04 - 00:41:39:14 Bill Clem: Because it was more so. It was really there was more, well, actually, there was more chance for, failure as far as air bridge culture. In other words, in also an engineer, in order to safely and efficiently move a train, he had to know what the slack was and train all the time. And when we keep the train string, we keep the train stretched out.

00:41:39:15 - 00:42:23:24 Bill Clem: When we keep it bunched up and all the air work on each individual car so that he could perform his, braking safely and efficiently without damage to blading or injury to members of crew in the cab. You know, caboose issues or but, it was, when you started think that you could have up to, Let’s say, up to maybe something a little more two feet of slack action on each car and 100 cars at 200ft mean was it possible for a locomotive to move 200ft?

00:42:23:26 - 00:42:47:15 Bill Clem: Books over moved into feet between each car. It is up to that up to spring action within the drawbar, plus the physical slack between the knuckles. Yeah. So you. It was an unusual word. You could see what could happen when you open the throttle. And the thing was bunch pieces be flying on the railroad.

00:42:47:21 - 00:42:53:01 Hal Riegger: Well, you’d have to go very slow, at least 200ft. Well, and then you.

00:42:53:03 - 00:43:14:13 Bill Clem: Until you knew the motion would be, now, with the advent of radios, real communications were. Here’s a you’re sitting up there with the radio and the conductor back there with the radio. And when the engineers tried to move the train, the conductor will say, you got them all moving. And then he knows and he can widen on the throne and, increase the speed.

00:43:14:15 - 00:43:21:02 Hal Riegger: Could you tell before they had radios like that, could you tell them, you know, taking all the slack out of a train.

00:43:21:07 - 00:43:45:12 Bill Clem: Just you all you could the main thing you would assume that the slack was bunched when you were just starting out of the yard or starting out of the yard. Your shoes like the boat. And you would be prepared to go the 200ft or whatever you think it was necessary to do before the train was moving, however, went on the road.

00:43:45:12 - 00:44:06:07 Bill Clem: Then it’s your responsibilities and all your responsibilities. When you were to know where the slack was, whether the train was bunched or stretch because you’re the one, stop the train. What procedure did you use to stop the train and you can use you kept the throttle, opens up the brakes and kept the engine brakes off and let the train stop you.

00:44:06:07 - 00:44:30:12 Bill Clem: Was going to be all stretched out. Then what? Time to start that train again? No problem, because it’s all stretched out. However, if you shut the throttle off and let the engine break down, stop the train, you could come in. Come in. Once. Then you’ve got other problems too, if you don’t mind me. Yeah. I’d like to know what you are interested in.

00:44:30:12 - 00:44:38:02 Bill Clem: Yeah. All right. Now, suppose you have a underlain, grade. Or suppose you’re out among there.

00:44:38:04 - 00:44:42:06 Hal Riegger: Could you use a specific example on the Camas Prairie?

00:44:42:08 - 00:45:13:07 Bill Clem: Well, on the Camas, very, very specific on the second subdivision. On the first subdivision, going upgrade. If you shut the throttle all quickly, has took the brakes. You’re going never even a multi grade. You’re going to have a certain amount of running. And the brakes are going to hold the movie. Release those brakes. The train does start rolling back down the hill until the engine brake says it’s possible to snap a knuckle or drop out of that way.

00:45:13:10 - 00:45:52:04 Bill Clem: So upgrade. You always use the except in the emergency you always tried to use. Set the train brakes and make sure that train is stretched out. When you stop so that there would be no move backward, running the train on the mountain. And of course, by the same token, coming down the hill, you want to keep that thing bunched up tight against the Indians as tight as you could when you came to a stop stopping the engine would be full engine brakes and in on Sam and the driver and everything else to keep that bunched up tight again.

00:45:52:04 - 00:46:06:16 Bill Clem: Same reason. If you didn’t, it was just, you release their brakes in person, you know, bang bang, bang. Here they come and they’ll show you. Run out. You couldn’t hold with the engine ready to shove. You right on low.

00:46:06:19 - 00:46:24:26 Hal Riegger: Right. Were there any particular spots? Sam, the Granger line. That’s, of course. What? Subdivision of the second circuit? I don’t know those. Yeah. were there any particular spots along there that were more difficult to handle and others?

00:46:25:15 - 00:46:44:13 Bill Clem: okay. Yeah. You’re just a normal water grade. I’d say a might move by 10%. Ascending grade to Lewiston. To Spalding. Spalding is the junction point where the second subdivision takes off with, the, first subdivision.

00:46:44:18 - 00:46:45:17 Hal Riegger: Yeah.

00:46:45:20 - 00:46:54:18 Bill Clem: Then as you, as you leave Spalding.

00:46:54:21 - 00:46:56:11 Bill Clem: And you leave Spalding.

00:46:56:14 - 00:46:57:11 Hal Riegger: Go to Laporte.

00:46:57:14 - 00:47:30:14 Bill Clem: You go. Gladly. that is all 1% grade up to Bundy, 1% arson. Now, that still is not too steep. Agree. however, from Bundy to Cul-De-Sac, it is 2.2%. Very well. No, 2.2 is the same as over Stampede pass over the mountain pass over, the Rockies for the transcontinental at 2.2. However, the lay of the land is so deceiving, it looks like it’s flat.

00:47:30:21 - 00:47:31:27 Bill Clem: I mean, we can. That’s what I.

00:47:31:27 - 00:47:32:11 Hal Riegger: Would if you.

00:47:32:11 - 00:48:02:23 Bill Clem: Would just. It is. It is difficult to believe that Belton is a 2.2% grade, and many engineers who have not been up there too much have been, two drastically, especially coming down, the left speed of the trend up to 30.5 mile an hour road. of course, now, with the new temporary regulations at 25 mile, I don’t know, crack anyway, but boy, that’s getting up that speed with a heavy train on a 2.2 grade.

00:48:02:23 - 00:48:08:02 Bill Clem: Is is, difficult to get on that road.

00:48:08:02 - 00:48:09:26 Hal Riegger: No, that was that much of a grade.

00:48:10:26 - 00:48:38:21 Bill Clem: then you told us that Reubens, which is 14 miles. Do you ever, 3% grade. And it is a good 3%. There’s a lot of crude, a lot of high degree curves and, horseshoe tunnels with high bridges, sand hill bridges. And that track, there is a 50 mile an hour track in every anywhere in that area.

00:48:38:24 - 00:49:05:16 Bill Clem: Your mountain grade operation will definitely come into effect, either ascending or descending. in years past, with boxcars, 40ft bulk, or you would probably have roughly a 70 ton load every look. I mean, that that would be about the maximum tonnage per car with the box for.

00:49:05:18 - 00:49:08:03 Hal Riegger: That includes the weight of the boxcars.

00:49:08:05 - 00:49:27:27 Bill Clem: Yes. Then with the covered hoppers. My gosh, here again. Now you run 135 tons per car, which is just down because braking is concerned. Also only,

00:49:27:29 - 00:49:58:11 Bill Clem: I would say Bottlenecking 77 to 78 when they finally got the third stringer and all the bridges on the second subdivision, which would enable them to bring solid trains of covered up or down them up. Prior to that time, it was necessary to stop, drop them off and switch your boxcar, know, lumber car or a empty boxcar in between every covered hopper, which took was very time consuming.

00:49:58:16 - 00:50:01:23 Hal Riegger: Because it was too heavy for the places to run.

00:50:01:25 - 00:50:34:27 Bill Clem: But not a legacy that you had a program in the history program, and they installed the third stringer on all the bridges, which beefed up the bridges, and then they went to solid trains to come to hoppers. Then we really got into it for the simple reason that you’re turned to good work as class. But when class closes with way up there to 120, 500 and 3035 tons per good break, which was especially after the lumber market fell down a little bit.

00:50:35:00 - 00:51:08:18 Bill Clem: You more so because the lumber cars moved just like it was later replaced by lose. If you had quite a few cars lumber, then your kind of would. So your average tonnage would be lower. But anytime you get over 100 tons per good break and a 3% grade, you have a whole bunch of very meticulous job to safely break to train a decent grade with the diesel locomotives.

00:51:08:18 - 00:51:35:14 Bill Clem: Of course you have dynamic brake and we have one built in feature built into the brake valves, which will maintain, a certain reduction under great pressure to, to hold the train coming down the mountain. And, then each car has a retaining valve on it that will.

00:51:35:16 - 00:51:53:28 Bill Clem: Delay the release of air. So in other words. On each car with a high retaining valve and high port position. When the engineer releases the brakes.

00:51:54:00 - 00:52:04:21 Bill Clem: He is recharging the train line that goes back through each car to the caboose and recharging the train line.

00:52:04:24 - 00:52:34:29 Bill Clem: The triple belt on each car moves to a recharge position, and at the same time releases the air from the brake shoulder on each car. With retained though it is what it does, it sets up a small war of us on each car that retards the release of the air from the brakes on so that Roland, we will stop and sub.

00:52:35:01 - 00:53:00:28 Bill Clem: We do valves and all the cars with every train that is. And and then start down the mountain and hold train all at 15 miles an hour, less than 50 miles an hour. Your dynamic brake is not very effective. The newer models, the diesels have what they call a.

00:53:01:01 - 00:53:06:03 Hal Riegger: I’ll get back. If I remember.

00:53:06:05 - 00:53:15:06 Bill Clem: Well, a new type of dynamic brake works right down to the train. Is almost for by the all the all the bottles of diesel we have here do not have that.

00:53:16:25 - 00:53:19:07 Hal Riegger: then a, GP nines would be the older.

00:53:19:07 - 00:53:48:29 Bill Clem: Models, but yes, on the back. But well I’ll give you a second or two on one, but but anyway, the, actually the best effective braking for, for then it was great to be around 20 miles an hour on the road. Another, but with a speed restriction, 50 miles an hour. We did not really have maximum dynamic braking at all times on the line.

00:53:49:01 - 00:53:58:26 Hal Riegger: Now, was this design of the braking system on each brake car the same? And the days of steam as it is on the diesel?

00:54:00:11 - 00:54:11:17 Bill Clem: no. in the latter days of steam, of course, they did have what they called the 80 valve. Now they did they.

00:54:11:19 - 00:54:13:29 Hal Riegger: I mean, could you release the overdrive?

00:54:14:01 - 00:54:32:05 Bill Clem: The operation was the same, the operation the same. But the valves have been so much improved with the newer cars. Now, however, they do seem to be more inclined to, be adapted to high speed operation. Right. Even the shoes of the Cooper shoes on on the car.

00:54:32:08 - 00:54:33:22 Hal Riegger: Is that the fiber?

00:54:33:29 - 00:54:58:13 Bill Clem: Right. That’s a beautiful breakthrough for high speed. The low speed. It does not do the work of a cast iron shoe. The cast iron shoot also. And you also had. the fire engine because of braking shoes or sparks or something? Oh, the Cobra fiberglass shoe was never.

00:54:58:19 - 00:54:59:24 Hal Riegger: Realized as well in.

00:54:59:24 - 00:55:26:21 Bill Clem: The fiber, I think so, yes. And like that would probably last longer. However, would an inexperienced engineer or other gear down in trouble on the mountain? We would come down and had to replace the shoes on every car and train, mostly because of overextended use of brakes on the mountain and the high speed limit going too fast and really burning the shoes up.

00:55:26:24 - 00:55:46:19 Bill Clem: In the fall, to get to the moment go, you ask about the Jeep Nines. Union Pacific number 245 was a 43 nine built by electromotive Lagrange and first run. The first GP running it like the first Jeep, the first GP nine. Yeah.

00:55:46:19 - 00:55:48:21 Hal Riegger: There were sevens before then, right?

00:55:48:27 - 00:56:08:29 Bill Clem: Yeah. And, the 245 was assigned to the Lewis through until about 1979 or 83 when he was being sent back to you being for, the manual, periodical test of some sort that was called and accidentally destroyed and,

00:56:09:01 - 00:56:13:09 Hal Riegger: You say 2.9. What did you say its number was?

00:56:13:09 - 00:56:14:16 Bill Clem: 245 or 2.

00:56:14:16 - 00:56:15:20 Hal Riegger: 45.

00:56:15:23 - 00:56:16:10 Bill Clem: 45.

00:56:16:13 - 00:56:17:26 Hal Riegger: Yeah.

00:56:17:28 - 00:56:36:23 Bill Clem: And, in fact, you 1954 I was an engineer, I was okay, I was forced to. Lewis has been the junior engineers. to work out Lewis a little bit like you live in Spokane Falls down here.

00:56:36:26 - 00:56:38:13 Hal Riegger: You were June.

00:56:38:14 - 00:56:39:26 Bill Clem: Or Northern Pacific.

00:56:40:03 - 00:56:43:03 Hal Riegger: And here and here. And you originally worked out of.

00:56:43:08 - 00:57:15:21 Bill Clem: Spokane’s East Paradise one time main mainline, west as far as Crew City, Washington. And down here to Lewis Lawson. All right. But I was down there on the next board. 1945 and, June the 10th, they gave me a job, a temporary job as lukewarm about recommending. And these are Doc Lewis, because I had to have experience in Spokane on the diesel.

00:57:15:23 - 00:57:46:28 Bill Clem: There was a train, a real Pullman here was was Charles Bird, Charlie Pierce. Well, he couldn’t that was all we got the EMT and the people sent, I believe the first, each of the 24 GP nines start. And that the heat got here on June the 10th of 19 before the at that time was when we, we started using the diesel world use on, camels, but.

00:57:47:14 - 00:57:58:16 Hal Riegger: no. Back again were you, did you actually go out, trains with engineers when you were, certifying them for as an engineer?

00:57:58:23 - 00:58:11:03 Bill Clem: Yes. we had every, every time I knew you were out and on the list or read some. We had to ride with them on every trailer until we go and call a part of that.

00:58:11:03 - 00:58:22:17 Hal Riegger: Was that part of your job? Yes. You like you had to go out with them? did you run on the, the steam locomotives here on the chemistry?

00:58:22:19 - 00:58:26:09 Bill Clem: Yes. like seldom.