Donald E. Crabtree Lithic Technology Collection

CLIR-DHC: Advisory Board Interview Bonnie Newsom 12/12/2022

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (00:00): Okay, so thank you for joining us, everyone today. I’m Marco Seiferle-Valencia, uh, Jylisa Kenyon and we’re here with Dr. Bonnie Newsom. So Bonnie, thank you so much for joining us. Um I’ve said this at the start of every one of our sessions, and it’s true every time. I am just so happy and honored with the advisory board that we were able to assemble for this, and I just want to thank you for being a part of it. Um the contributions that you’ve made already have been really helpful. Um we were just chatting before we hit record about, you know, the possibility of setting sort of a time-limit on some of these, um recordings, which I think is such an excellent idea and such a great way to allow people to speak freely while also then, um, still having some, uh, autonomy over how that’s presented and allowing their ideas to evolve.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (00:47): And so that’s just one example of a — a really great, uh, kind of concise contribution, um, you’ve made. That was just, I think, you know sort of just an idea that came off the top of your head that I feel like is super helpful for us and — and the group and even, kind of um, sort of informs this work in a different way. Because I think in — in libraries and archives, we’re always thinking of making things for the record and making things permanent and durable. And those goals can be good and they can also have some — some drawbacks. And it’s also, um, kind of a western approach to doing things. It’s a way that’s like, we gotta lock down the record and then have it there, and then nothing can change and we need to cite it. So I just wanna, you know acknowledge that right off the bat, that was such a helpful and useful thing and, uh, contribution to give us. So thank you for joining us.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (01:35): Um I’m gonna ask you to tell us just a little bit about yourself. Any, um, affiliations that you want to share, and any, um, research titles or other types of titles that you’d like to share as part of doing your introduction.

Bonnie Newsom (01:47): Bonnie Newsom niltoliwis naga pαnawάhpskew nil. Uh hello, my name is Bonnie Newsom. I’m a citizen of the Penobscot Nation. I’m also an archaeologist with the anthropology department at the University of Maine. Uh and I’m affiliated with the University of Maine’s Climate Change Institute. I’m a mother of four and grandmother of three, so the, those are my greatest contributions to the world. [laughs]

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (02:14): All — all good ones and um, what, what a — what a rich, uh, sort of a rich set of contributions too. Right? Like um, so — so thank you for being here. Um I’m just gonna dive right into these questions that we shared with you and then we can just sorta have a conversation and work our way through ‘em. Um so the first one is just pretty broad. It’s, what’s your perspective on the Crabtree Collection and ones like it? Is it appropriative of Native culture?

Bonnie Newsom (02:40): So the Crabtree Collection is, in my mind, it epitomizes this notion that archaeologists have the right to, um, study and collect, um, Indigenous heritage without, uh, consultation or permission. That being said, I think it, Crabtree you know, lived and worked during a time when, uh, Indigenous peoples had not asserted a voice in kind of this, uh, um, area. And um, not to excuse some of the, uh, problems with that, but to at least acknowledge and recognize that, um, you know I don’t think he meant any, um, malice from what, you know, he was doing in terms of collecting information and, and skills and knowledge from Indigenous peoples. Um so I — I do feel like, um, the Crabtree project now is an opportunity for us to kinda visit that and revisit that in a way that, uh, brings Indigenous voices to, um, his work and his legacy.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (04:06): Yeah, that’s, I — I think that’s a really honest and fair and true way of putting it and one that’s generous to him and also acknowledges sort of the historical context. I’m not sure if this is something that you know, so feel free to if you don’t. Um but for Crabtree’s time, what would’ve been kind of a high watermark of Indigenous collaboration with archeology? Right, like what did that look like in the 1970s say? I mean, I — I think it’s hard to sorta pin Crabtree to a particular time because it’s partly like what epoch of his career are we talking about? But I guess I’m just sort of wondering like, what — what could’ve, what was the best sort of version of what we’re describing as this goal of Indigenous collaboration that might have been happening at the time? Was that even in the zeitgeist of anthropologists and archaeologists at all? Um and when did that kind of start to sort of come to fruition? I, I’m — I’m just sort of curious about those things and curious what you might know.

Bonnie Newsom (05:11): Mm-hmm. So I think, you know, the 1970s and earlier, there was an effort among some archeologists to include Indigenous peoples in excavations, um, or to uh, uh, you know, consult with Indigenous peoples in terms of information gathering. It seems to be a very extractive kind of uh, um approach to including Indigenous peoples. Um, if we go back a little further, um, you know, Warren K. Moorehead, who was an archaeologist here in the northeast, uh, he, um, never consulted with Indigenous peoples. Except, you know there was one time where I read in his, uh, publication that he wanted to visit Indian Island, which is my, uh, reservation and do some archaeology there and the, the Tribe said no. And, um, he noted that, you know, the Penobscots were very tenacious in their rights, um, and, you know he wasn’t able to do that work.

Bonnie Newsom (06:18): Um so I think that, you know, fast forward to 60s and 70s, I think, um, I think there was more of a desire at that point to try and at least, um, interpret, help interpret the archaeological record with information from Indigenous peoples. And still, you know, the consultation was not there, um, as we see it today. And, you know, this movement of Indigenous archaeologies and community-based approaches has really, um, blossomed since probably the 1990s. Uh, and we’re, and now we’re moving into um I think an era of uh, uh, kind of critical Indigenous studies in archaeology where we are beginning to really deconstruct some of that, um, uh, those normative ways of thinking about archaeology. So, um, I’ve seen a wonderful evolution of the discipline just in my time. You know, I started archaeology in the 90s and, um, I really have seen, um, you know a transformation during that time. So I’m excited and optimistic, but I do think uh, that, Crabtree was probably um, uh considerate and thoughtful about Indigenous peoples. It just was not part of the norm at that time to consult.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (07:55): Yeah, thank — thank you. That is — that is so helpful and really useful to — to think about and understand some of that historical context and sort of, like, what was possible and what wasn’t possible and what was happening and what the norms are. I think, um, you know one — one criticism of our criticism of Crabtree might be like, well, you have to understand people in their historical context. And so I — I think it is, that’s true, we do need to understand people in their historical context. And also librarians and archivists must be careful to not just uncritically present historical context as if it’s contemporary context because we haven’t sort of got ourselves up to date on the profession, so to speak.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (08:34): And so, you know, I think what you were saying about this transformation in the last 30 years, um, is absolutely so true and so relevant to, uh, librarians and archivists, you know, who maybe aren’t in these disciplines directly to think about though, well, what’s happened? How — how have we criticized and expanded our thinking in this discipline in the last 30 years? And how can we make sure that, um, historic collections are then presented within that contemporary context? We can acknowledge their original historical context for what it is, and then we can also say, and this is the way we talk about these things now, or this is the way we think about these things now. And so that, that I think is just such a, a great, great encapsulation of some of the thinking that goes into that. So thank you for that one. Jylisa…

Bonnie Newsom (09:22): Yeah, and I think also I just want to, uh, point out that I think that history shapes how we see the world today and how we interact with each other today.

Bonnie Newsom (09:32): And so…

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (09:33): Yeah.

Bonnie Newsom (09:33): …uh we bring, a little, we bring some of that baggage [laughs] as Indigenous peoples, uh, at least I do, you know in terms of, um, the way I approach archaeology. And so, uh, you know, all of the activities of previous archaeologists have shaped kind of the context with, within which we have to operate today.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (9:57): That’s right. That’s right. And I — and I think that in my response, I was not thinking enough of Indigenous peoples specifically in these settings. I was thinking of a non-Indigenous librarian and archivist. And so there’s a whole sort of additional level of complexity and exposure to harm and, um, the way the harm, the norms and the discipline are harmful and then the way these specific instances of historical harm, especially when uncritiqued, they still retain their punch, right? Like, when I — when I, um, go and weed my textbook collection at the Curriculum Center and see these really terrible depictions of Pueblo Indians, it doesn’t matter that it’s a textbook from 1980. Right, that punch, that, the way it hits me is still impactful, the racism is still impactful, it still hurts me. And so I — I think that that’s, um, a really powerful and important, um, sort of, um, recentering of the Indigenous perspective. Because yes, absolutely Indigenous people working in this context are still very much impacted by these historicized beliefs.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (10:57): And, you know, the way that mainstream, non-Native culture relates to Native people is still very much impacted by those historical beliefs. So, um, in Buddhism we refer — refer to that as the causes and conditions. Right, so the things that set up the way things are now, um, and its, there’s a real emphasis and you need to understand those things if you’re interested in sort of breaking, uh, harmful patterns. And so I — I think that’s, um, I always think of that’s, the — the causes and conditions when people say, “why do we need to care about the way we used to understand things?” And it’s like, because it informs how we understand things right now.

Bonnie Newsom (11:30): Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (11:30): Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’ll turn us over to number two. Jylisa, uh, take us away.

Jylisa Kenyon (11:36): Okay. This is uh, likely kinda building off of what we’ve just been talking about and digging into it a little bit more. Uh, do you think folks digitizing collections who are not anthropologists should take up this type of contextualizing work? If so, how can we be successful without causing further harm?

Bonnie Newsom (11:55): Absolutely. I think, um, non-archeologists and anthropologists should be, uh, contextualizing this work because, it, you all bring something completely new and fresh to, um, the materials, and as well as to the historical context, within you know, of the materials. So, um, I’m a big advocate for multiple ways of looking at problem or, uh, an issue. And so I think, um, bringing some of your, um, knowledges and, uh, understandings of a different discipline is very, very helpful. How do you not do harm? Um…I think you don’t, I think the best way to avoid harm is to consult with, um, just what you’re doing, consult with Indigenous peoples or, um, people, you know, descendant communities that may be affected by the, um, the content of whatever it is that you’re working on. And so that gives you kind of a sounding board to, um, to work from and to bounce ideas off of. But I think it’s really important to um understand at least, some of — some of those issues that uh make some of these, uh, collections harmful in the first place, so.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (13:39): Uh, uh, thank you for that answer, Bonnie. I, I’ll — I’ll be honest, I think every time we’ve asked this, I’ve sort of been expecting for someone to maybe say, like, “Yeah, you guys shouldn’t — shouldn’t be mucking around, which [laughs] you don’t know what you’re talking about,” you know, and I — and I think maybe that’s partly the — the librarian or the archivist sort of imposter syndrome or anxiety. Which is like, you’re always working with people who are experts in these disciplines, that they almost always know more about the discipline than you. And so you have to understand your value is not in being the expert at the disciplinary level, but is in pedagogy and understanding information it is in contexting and… you know — you know, which is, uh I think, uh it’s an incredible research skill as you develop it. Right, this is why if you get hooked up with the right research librarian on your project, it’s just like having an incredible partner who can really help you like supercharge your thinking ‘cause that’s — that’s what we can do at our high watermark.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (14:33): But I think one of the ways white supremacy can sometimes manifest in that is, people will say, “I shouldn’t — I shouldn’t…I can’t — I can’t work…” I love this phrase, you said this descendant communities, right, and it — it helps people to think about this beyond an Indigenous perspective, right, and so people will say, “I’m not an expert. I’m not from that community, therefore I can’t meaningfully engage with content about that community because I don’t have that expertise.” And, um, I’ve just been really struck by how, the sort of the consistency and response here from folks on the advisory board on this question, which is, yes, people should be — should be taking up this work and you should actually acknowledge that there’s the possibility of your causing some harm, not let that scare you off, so to speak, but instead come up with smart accountability structures and, you know, bringing in the right voices to kind of avoid that — that happening and, um, having accountability when it does.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (15:25): And so, uh if — if that could be one of our main summary bullet takeaway points from someone coming to this website for 30 seconds, it would be like, “don’t — don’t buy into that. ‘I’m not an expert, so therefore I don’t have a role to play in putting this in its more, um, just context.’” Right, I — I think that that’s a — that’s a really powerful message and one that’s super important for librarians and archivists to hear.

Bonnie Newsom (15:50): Yeah. I — I also feel like this notion of expert and expertise is not really, uh, the way we should be looking at each other. Um, you know I may have a specialty in ceramics and, but I certainly would never consider myself, uh, an expert, uh. And, you know when I was, I’m just gonna sidetrack a little bit on a, a story here. When I was putting together, um, my community, uh, dissertation committee, ‘cause I had a community advisory group for that. Um, one of the, uh, folks I selected, she was a mother, um, of three I think, and she had a very, um, she was very culturally connected and, um, a — a well-respected family. And I wanted her there because of those characteristics.

Bonnie Newsom (16:43): Um and she was like, you know, “I don’t know what I can bring to this, um, you know to your advisory group. But you know, I don’t know how I can be helpful and I don’t think I can be helpful.” You know, and I was like, absolutely, you can be helpful. Uh because, you know, you have, and I — I think that goes for people outside of the discipline too. You have, um, knowledge, knowledges and um, um, experiences that uh, help — help us all to look at things with fresh eyes, and that’s what we need. We need, you know, those fresh eyes to kinda look at things a little differently, and that’s how new knowledge is created, right. So um, so yeah, I definitely think that, you know, everybody has something to offer.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (17:37): Yeah. Wow, that’s the community advisory or like, community, uh, like, committee is just blowing my mind. That is such a — that’s such a smart idea and such a — such a pragmatic idea to really, um, I mean, just get good feedback to see how your — how your research is actually meaningfully impacting and engaging and is understood by that community that it is by and from and about. Like that is, that concept right there, I feel like is, I have never heard of anyone doing that, and it is such a good idea. So, um, I’m, I’m gonna be thinking about that one. I’m gonna be marinating on that for a bit. [laughs]

Bonnie Newsom (18:15): Yeah. Well, it was, um, it was a wise thing to do, I think.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (18:20): Did you have any, kinda pushback from your sorta academy side and doing that? Is — is that at all a norm? Is that something that you’d seen other folks do?

Bonnie Newsom (18:29): It was a very informal kind of thing. I, you know I, it wasn’t something that I went through, uh, my committee or, uh, my institution at all to do. It’s just something that I did in order to keep me grounded and keep the research grounded. Um I didn’t meet with them as often as I would’ve liked, um, I’ll admit that. But I do think that the feedback and the guidance that I got from them was very, very helpful. And — and again, it’s, um, you know, it’s archaeology with and for, uh, and by Indigenous people. So you’ve got to have that community advisory group on your dissertation if you’re going to be an Indigenous archeologist, I feel like. [laughs]

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (19:14): Uh, I think you, I — I love that. And I think you hit on something really powerful there, which reminds me of my work on my Chicana por mi Raza archive, which is, sometimes people don’t really understand that project because they’re like, “well, it’s not a job per se, and it’s not your research per se. Like, what is it?” And it’s like, it’s a community heritage and history project, and I have a service commitment to this community in a way that exceeds any job I ever have. And so unemployed, employed, doesn’t matter. I work at CPMR because I’m a culture and heritage keeper. You know, which I — I say, not to brag, it’s honestly feels some, sort of like a burden sometimes when you don’t get to spend as much time care-taking for that as you feel that you should be able to. But I — I just think that sometimes we get really stuck in thinking, like oh, it has to be like an official university sanction ordained thing, and, you know, my advisor committee has to sign-off of it.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (20:11): And it’s like, no, you have to think about your bigger responsibility as a human being and how you’re as like a human in these communities and it’s more than your professional role, and it’s not more than a research role. And sure, it’s important for that, like yeah, if people are gonna take me seriously as a community-based archeologist, I need to have this on my CV. But it’s a much bigger thing that calls you to do that and sort of, that you manifest that out of, right? And I feel like that’s sort of this, um, sometimes we refer to it in like a western way of, like, the whole self, where it’s like, you need to think about your work in a much bigger way than just, what do I need to do to fulfill the functions to be successful in what I’m doing in a, sort of like, get my degree or get my check or get tenure or whatever it is kind of thing. So.

Bonnie Newsom (20:55): Absolutely, couldn’t agree more.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (20:57): Uh well, let’s go to question number three. Um what makes a digital effort like this a good partner to Native nations and people? Uh what can the academy and land-grant schools do to — do to be better partners and be more accountable to native stakeholders?

Bonnie Newsom (21:15): Well, I think the… I’m sorry. The first part of it, a, again, I’m sorry.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (21:23): Uh it’s just what do you think makes a digital project like this a good partner to Native nations and people? Um, and what do you think…

Bonnie Newsom (21:30): Let’s start with that one.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (21:31): Yeah.

Bonnie Newsom (21:31): Let’s start with that one and then I’ll go to the next one.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (21:33): Perfect. Sounds good.

Bonnie Newsom (21:36): So the, uh, it — it, it’s access. It’s all about access. And so many of our communities, um, and people in our communities don’t have access to, uh, information about their, information that’s been gathered about their community. And so I think, uh, this kind of project is critical for that. And, we really, um I — I have some reservations about you know, the whole digital world, um, but I do feel like, the one thing that it does for us is it, it brings the world into you know, uh, Indigenous communities and, um, to Indigenous peoples. And that’s, uh, the most important thing with regard to this kind of digital, um, collections work.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (22:37): Bonnie, I have a, kind of, uh, follow up question about that. Which is, with the — the Native provenanced to items in the collection, we think most of those were surface collected or looted basically. And so we’ve really struggled with the best way to present those and if they should be presented at all. Um I think where we’re at right now, correct me if I’m wrong, Jylisa, is those items are being digitized, although we’re not digitizing very many of them because we are avoiding any of the ones that need an additive process. So, you know we invented that glue dipping method. We’re not doing that for the Native provenanced artifacts, with the idea being they’re not ours to do any kind of non, totally, uh, like erasable process to them. And we do think that that process leaves a residue. So we’re trying to not do it on actual archeological artifacts.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (23:31): Um so the downside of that is that then access is not created for those items. Um and there’s an argument to be made sort of off of what you’re saying here that, if one of the most important things is providing access, should we say, well, we need to provide access to the, we need to put these Native provenanced items out there so that the people they belong to or the descendants of the people that they belong to have the opportunity to see them and claim them?

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (24:06): I mean, I think that’s kind of a — a specific version of the sort of digital repatriation argument in general, which is if we digitize it and put it out there, they will come and say it’s theirs and take it back. You know, and does that actually happen? You know, is that sort of good PR? I think there’s a lot of debate, and you know I’m sorta outside my area of expertise there. But I — I guess I’m just sort of wondering, do you have any thoughts on how that access goal kinda manifests in the context of those Native provenanced items in the collection that we’re not really sure what are most ethical approaches to providing access to those?

Bonnie Newsom (24:44): I think um, my sense would be to start with, um, photographs to those communities within a region that, uh, you have some, that there’s some potential that people are connected. And, um, you know, I think, um, iPhones now can do amazing things with you know, 3D images and, uh, you know, just taking a couple images doesn’t affect, uh, those items in a way that other types of, um, uh, preservation efforts do. So, perhaps, you know one of the things that you might think about is, um, sharing those with an, an organization. Like, um, we have United South and Eastern tribes, and they meet every, um, quarter in different places. And, you know, if you were to kind of, uh, put your story out there about, you know these are some of the items that we have, and, you know, we would like some guidance on the best, uh, uh journey for them, uh, I would definitely say that that might be a good way to kinda handle that problem, um, and do it in a — in a venue where you have a collective group of Indigenous peoples and the National Association of THPOs, for example, they hold a meeting. And so taking that, uh, taking, uh, what you have and making it available in kinda, um, culturally appropriate venues is probably what I, if it were me, that’s where I would start.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (26:46): Wow. Thank you, Bonnie. That is, I’m so glad I asked that. Um I’m always aware I’m interjecting these extra questions into this, the — the talking here, but, um, that is such a — a good tip. And, you know, something it makes me think about is, we have all of these 2D photos that we’re taking to effectively document the collection, and it’s like, could those be part of exactly what you’re talking about? That’s a non-harmful way of providing a basic preservation and potential identification. And, um, it makes me think about a lot of the metadata that we have for these items, which might include vague place information or, um, really general material description. Um, you know, and we have some sort of built-in mapping features that we might be able to have on our website. So it’s interesting to think about how metadata and 2D photos, which I had not been thinking about as playing a key role in this, how we could use those to maybe have a little map that says, these are some of the Native provenanced items in this collection, this is the very base level information we have about them.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (27:52): And as you’re saying, um, if you recognize these and can help us sort of continue these items on their journey to where they need to be, um, you know the Bowers Lab has expressed an interest in repatriating things when possible and when identification can happen. So I think that’s a really, uh, good reminder that it’s not just the sorta technologically, uh, shiny thing, uh, the new thing. That is, you know it’s like, well, you could also just show people the pictures and then you could start there and you could take these pictures to these specific venues as you’re pointing out where there’s already sort of the expertise gathered. So I think those are incredibly practical and pragmatic, uh, next steps.

Bonnie Newsom (28:30): A poster is, yeah a poster is a wonderful [laughs] vehicle for that too.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (28:36): Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie Newsom (28:37): You know, um, something that people are familiar with.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (28:41): Well, and it gives us something to think about for the website too. You know, is there a way to create a space that then supports poster activity? And then it’s like, go check out this part of the website for, uh, Native provenanced things.

Bonnie Newsom (28:52): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (28:54): Awesome. All right. Jylisa, I think you’re up with question four, right?

Jylisa Kenyon (28:57): Well, we have the rest of question three if you wanted to ask that.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (29:00): Oh, sure. I wasn’t sure. Bonnie, do, do you have any thoughts you wanted about, uh, what can the academy and land-grant schools do to be better partners and more accountable to Native stakeholders? I feel like we — we touched on that, but if there’s anything specific.

Bonnie Newsom (29:13): Programmatic agreements or memorandum — memorandum of uh, of understanding about how, uh, you as an institution or — or how institutions manage and engage with and, um, share material culture or other, or archives. Uh so that’s what I would advise. We have one here at the University of Maine with Penobscot Nation, and I know, um, Darren Ranco is working on another one with Passamaquoddy Tribe that kind of outlines how we’re gonna, uh, work together in these things.

Jylisa Kenyon (29:55): Okay. So question four. From your perspective, what should people know about flintknapping to understand the art and practice in a way that doesn’t center this one white non-Native person?

Bonnie Newsom (30:10): Well, I think — I think people need to recognize, and they probably will through this collection, but I — I think people need to recognize that it’s a very sophisticated skill that people had, uh, that was crucial for people being able to survive. And, um, you know, folks had to have a sense of, um, physics, geology, geometry. Um, uh, you know, they just were very, um, they were experts [laughs] or some of them were experts, right? Go back to that term, where they, uh, knew how to do this and do it well. And they had to, uh, had to know how to do this well. So that’s for me, flintknapping, uh, is that is first and foremost what I would, um, put on a platform in terms of understanding that process. In terms of, um, you know, flintknappers and, uh, um, other amateurs who, who do this work, be Indigenous or not, I think, uh, they do help us to, um, understand the process a little better. And going through that, um, exercise of trying to make your own stone tool is very humbling. And I think that also helps us to understand, um, the sophistication of, um, people’s abilities.

Bonnie Newsom (31:51): Uh but I feel like we, um, as Indigenous peoples, we, you know, it’s kind of like other people speakin’ our language. [laughs] Um, while I understand, you know this — this, uh, the importance of preserving language, its, um, and it — it goes along with flintknapping too, there’s a, a little sense of, um, uh, I don’t know what the word is, uh, what you’d call it, but I — I feel like it’s inappropriate for, uh, others to know something that Indigenous peoples don’t, that’s part of their heritage. And so, you know in terms of flintknapping, I think all of that knowledge that’s out there and existing now needs to be brought back to our communities. Um, and that expertise needs to be recentered into our, um, into our communities.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (32:57): I think those are really great points, Bonnie, and, um, it makes me think of, you know, uh, the audience, I think should, in thinking about these issues should be really cognizant of, you know, boarding schools and the systematic efforts to destroy Native culture that many Native adults were directly impacted by and are survivors of.

Bonnie Newsom (33:19): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (33:19): And so I think, you know, when you’re talking about other people having access to culture that was intentionally marginalized, destroyed, assimilated, and then you have non-Native people practicing an authentic version of that culture, um, you see it in other things. You see it with food, um…

Bonnie Newsom (33:40): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (33:40): …you know, the way foods get Americanized, while at the same time, if you’re eating a more ethnic original version of that food, you get marginalized as a kid. Right, you’re getting bullied at school…

Bonnie Newsom (33:50): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (33:51): …for bringing your smelly fish. And then, you know, those same people grow up to be the adults who are like, oh, you got to go to the strip mall and get the authentic such and such because it’s so good right.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (34:00): And so it’s this like simultaneous marginalization and violence from the dominant culture that then also seeks to reappropriate that thing for its own value. And so I think — I think you articulate that — that well and that that’s really something for people who maybe don’t have as much context to — to really think about the ways that Native knowledge and cultural tradition was systemically removed for people in Canada and North America. Um and I don’t know the history of boarding schools in Mexico, but you have colonization since 1600, so that’s a different, progenitors of that effectively. So, um, yeah I — I think really, really, uh, present and pragmatic points there.

Bonnie Newsom (34:42): Yeah, language is the hardest, it’s very heartbreaking. There’s a guilt and a shame for not being able to speak your language, I think among people. And that is really, um, it’s really hard to see, um, non-Native people fluent in our language when we’re not able to be. We don’t have the luxury of having the time to — to spend and that, it goes along with flintknapping as well. You know, we don’t have the luxury to sit down and do that all the time ‘cause we have to work and feed our families and all these other things, so yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (35:17): Well, and yeah. And I — and I feel like there, you’re — you’re getting at the — the systemic, the systemic impacts of poverty, which is, um, you know, the — the ways in which you don’t have time for external activities if you’re working multiple jobs or extremely physically demanding jobs. Um, I noticed that Navajo or Diné is available on Duolingo…

Bonnie Newsom (35:39): Hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (35:39): …and that was a few years ago. And I thought that that was really interesting. Um, you know, and I — I — I was wondering how the Diné feel about that. You know, I — I — I really respect, um, the way like, the, the Navajo Nation or the Diné have responded to things like Urban Outfitters appropriating their — their designs and their patterns and they trademarked those and then sued and you know got Urban Outfitters to pull those items.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (36:04): And so I was very curious about that sort of Duolingo collaboration and the — the sort of, “well, that’s great if you’re a, a Navajo or Diné person, [laughs] and you wanna learn your language, that’s really great.” But then also, what does that mean for it to be on this app that’s sort of for like, you know is it for Native audiences specifically? Is it in-culture? Like no, it’s just there along, you know all these other languages from all these other colonies that you might want to…

Bonnie Newsom (36:31): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (36:31): …you know, as an American go and be able to speak the language of. So it’s — it’s very complicated and very complex and, um, yeah I think the — the language one is one that is, um, a particularly impactful and sad example.

Bonnie Newsom (36:43): Yeah. And I think, um, you know, uh, it’s, I’m conflicted on that because…

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (36:49): Yeah.

Bonnie Newsom (36:50): …if we don’t do these things, you know, our — our language right now is very, very fragile. And I try to use what I know and — and when I can.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (36:59): Yeah.

Bonnie Newsom (36:59): Um but if — if we don’t, um, make an effort to, uh, promote that, promote it even kind of beyond our own communities, um, will it survive? I don’t know. So that’s — that’s a, it’s a conflict, the tension there for me.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (37:22): Well, to me it sounds like a call for action to land-grants to…

Bonnie Newsom (37:26): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (37:26): …fulfill their unique regional roles as history and culture preservers and to get invested with Native communities in a truly collaborative, not appropriative and extractive way and say, “what are the resources that we can lend to this very important problem of language loss?” Because…

Bonnie Newsom (37:43): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (37:43): …you know, there’s the 560 some federally recognized Tribes, and many of them, too many of them have this issue where elders are aging and taking the language with them. And I think cultural heritage workers have, I mean, room to run in — in terms of, there’s a lot of work to be done. So if — if we could get that message out that that’s something that we need to figure out how to respond to as heritage workers, um, while also forefronting Native voices so that it doesn’t become these appropriative, extractive, um, things, I think that would be — that would be great. So if whoever’s listening, if you’d like to make that happen.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (38:23): Um so question number five, uh, one of the topics we’ve discussed as part of this grant project is the relationship between experimental archaeology, amateur archaeology, and cultural as well as knowledge appropriation. Um what do you see as the relationship between those concepts and how it relates to Crabtree?

Bonnie Newsom (38:44): Well, um, I think I touched a little bit on this previously. Um I — I feel like there are, uh, opportunities for all of those, um, aspects of archaeological reproduction, I guess you’d call it, or um, uh, I don’t know, they’re — they’re — they’re all a little different. You know, experimental archaeology has a pretty specific goal to answer an archaeological question. And, uh, the others, in terms of, uh, people, flintknapping or amateurs, um, uh, they have a different goal. So, um, I think working together as a way to, uh, bring all of those entities, uh, together with, uh, a new, um, to look at the work through a new lens, that’s what needs to happen.

Bonnie Newsom (39:48): So what we need to do is, um, influence those communities, which they are in ways to ensure that what they know and learn, uh, has some, um, benefits for Indigenous communities where, you know, there, uh, um, it’s not extractive. You know, so is there some way that they can, uh, create a give back, uh, kind of aspect to whatever it is they’re doing, be it experimental archaeology. So one of the things that we did recently here was, uh, we recreated pots. And a group of us, um, [clearing throat] uh, they call it the clay team, uh, we made pots and, you know, pottery has not been something that our people have done, in, you know, since contact.

Bonnie Newsom (40:50): And so bring, experimenting with that and bringing the archaeology in, uh, to inform that process, you know was, um, was how it should be happening in other areas, in flintknapping in, um, you know, any kind of experimental archeology. You know, I think all of that in, knowledge, uh, needs to be redirected, uh, to ensure that the Indigenous communities are — are benefiting from that too.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (41:29): Awesome. That sounds great. I, um, I, the, the clay — the clay thing sounds particularly powerful, like having that opportunity to do that in-community and sort of be like, we know that this went away with contact and now we are able to bring it back using archaeological knowledge and our community together that’s very powerful.

Bonnie Newsom (41:47): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (41:48): A high watermark, I would say.

Bonnie Newsom (41:49): It’s been a wonderful experience and, you know, the kids, um, simply love it, to, you know, to sift the clay and to do these, um, various activities that go along with it. You know, our pots aren’t perfect and we have a ways to go before we’re, we are on par with our ancestors. But we’re tryin’ and we’re learnin’ from them and — and — and we’re experimenting and, um, we are doing it together. And so that’s — that’s what’s really important.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (42:21): There’s something so powerful too about being able to look at those archaeological examples and — and then…

Bonnie Newsom (42:27): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (42:27): …apply it to contemporary art you’re trying to make. I do, um, Columbia Plateau Basket making.

Bonnie Newsom (42:33): Oh yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (42:33): And, um, it, it’s just been really, it’s — it’s changed my whole relationship to like how I look at these things in the museums, you know which then makes me look at other objects and art objects differently. And so it’s — it’s so powerful to be able to say, like, um, I’m having this kind of conversation with my ancestors via, or with a sort of shared group of ancestors ‘cause I’m not Columbia Plateau. But I’m having this conversation over time via the art and the practice and being able to look at the original, um, or an original item and then what I’m creating now. So that’s, I’m sure it’s transformative for those kids involved.

Bonnie Newsom (43:08): It is. And you know again, you go back to the 3D, uh, imagery that you can actually use with your iPhone, you can create with your iPhone, and you can twist a — a projectile point all around and see how it was made. You can look at the stitching on something and, uh, you know, figure that out. You can look at the plating of a basket, whatever it is, um, it’s, it is amazing.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (43:35): Sometimes I think we mighta had an easier time digitizing with the Lidar on an iPhone [laughs]…

Bonnie Newsom (43:30): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (43:30): …than the camera but those dang preservation requirements. Awesome. All right, Jylisa, well, do you want to take us on to question six?

Jylisa Kenyon (43:49): Yes. Uh, as we’ve discussed, the Crabtree Collection includes objects Crabtree created as well as objects created by Native and Indigenous people that he or those he, or those who knew him surface collected or looted. What options are there for discovering the geological provenance of the Native belongings, especially when any residues have not been preserved?

Bonnie Newsom (44:13): Um, I would start with XRF, X-ray fluorescence. If you have a — a, geochemical signature of a particular rock source, um, you can match those up and I think that’s pretty easy. I’m not, um, super familiar with the process, although we did just get an XRF handheld machine here at U-Maine, so I’m excited about that. Um so I will know more hopefully next year. [laughs] Um but I think that would be one way to — to at least begin to reveal the story of that piece. And so that’s what I would recommend. Um other ways, um, I suspect there’s probably some, um, quote unquote “typological features” of various projectile points that might help, to, um, connect it to a certain place in time. So, um, you know, doing some of that work would probably be helpful if it hasn’t already been done.

Jylisa Kenyon (45:23): Those are great, great suggestions and, uh, your phrasing of kind of revealing the story I think is something that Marco and I have talked about a lot, um, amongst ourselves and with our collaborators as well as with the advisory board, is we might not have all of the answers and the technology to answer that question of geological provenance, uh, exactly right now, but if we can kind of keep making steps and adding to what we understand about the story, you know, other people might come along in 50 years and have something else that then they can contribute to get it closer to these items no longer being seen as having no provenance.

Bonnie Newsom (46:02): Right. Absolutely. You know, I think that, um, with any “resource,” quote unquote again, um, with any material that we extract from the earth, you know, you’re taking habitat and, um, resources from other species. Uh and so I think reconnecting some of what you have to its original source, may be healing in some ways, you know, um, that we don’t think too much about rocks and taking rocks from one place to another, and, um using them for our needs, but certainly does leave an impact on the earth. And I think that we as humans need to be mindful of that.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (46:50): I shared a, a joke in our Team Chat that was like, “think before you adopt a rock. They live for millions of years.”

Bonnie Newsom (46:58): [Laughs]

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (46:58): Um and it was both a joke, but you know, it’s also — it’s also serious in the sense of like, oh, well, geez, maybe this is kind of a big, this — this is a big responsibility. You know, a — a zoo collection, you think of those as living animals in a sort of western sense, but uh western perspective doesn’t necessarily consider the sort of full animate life of rock and what it — it might be. So, um, I agree with Jylisa, I think those are fantastic suggestions. The XRF in particular, I don’t think we’d heard about that one, or I hadn’t connected its name for what it is. So that, that’s very helpful.

Bonnie Newsom (47:32): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (47:32): And it makes me think about, um, I know Crabtree has, I mean, this is like his big collection that he bequeathed, but I know that he has items in other collections, other places.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (47:44): Um and so it’s really interesting to think about a sort of, um, a — a multi-institutional repatriation. And so you know, you’ve seen these, sort of like let’s reconstitute the Walt Whitman Archive across six different institutions. And it’s like, well, what if you could take that idea and put it into repatriation and take some of these big flintknapper name people who donated these huge collections, which include mixed provenanced items. So what if, you know, what if your XRF scanning tool allows you to identify a Crabtree point in your institution’s holdings, and then you could say, “hey guys, you know this one very likely is from like Guadalajara. And so those ones that you have that look just like this and you know share some of those surface characteristics that you’re talking about, maybe those are from Guadalajara too.” And that to me, that’s so exciting to think about how this could inspire or how we could use the digital networks that we can create to do something just, right? To not further extraction and resource taking, but to actually, um, you know, make — make some amends there or make a — make a sort of different path for these objects and have them maybe end up, um, back where they belong.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (48:57): So that, that’s just so cool to me to think about, um, that those sorts of potentials and, um, also that this hopefully, I mean, one of the goals is that, this collection being digitized helps to inspire researchers to come here and work on it. And it would be so cool to have folks who came with that kind of a mission, um, as well as wanting to know about Crabtree. But, I — I that would be, I think one of my dreams, is that this helps to kind of inspire other people to think about all the different types of research you could do with collections like this. And that, um, we have technology now where we don’t just have to say it’s lost.

Bonnie Newsom (49:31): You know what would be a neat project would be a story map of a particular projectile point source. And wouldn’t that be something? You know, as I’ve mentioned, we have, um, some of Rob Bonnichsen’s materials as a student of Crabtree’s. Maybe there’s connections, XRF connections we can make between those, you know, and create this really neat story map of the material and where it is and you know.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (49:58): Oh my God. What a, and what a cool way, like what a cool way to tell that…

Bonnie Newsom (50:03): Hm-hmm.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (50:03): …that story, right, and to sort of shift it to a more time immemorial timeline, right? It’s like, yes, these couple of individuals handled this rock and helped to make this happen and it’s really fascinating to be able to trace their social network through this XRF data. And also, who is this rock?

Bonnie Newsom (50:20): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (50:20): It’s been here for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years, and where is it going? So yes, I — I agree. And I think in some ways we’re — we’re kind of well-positioned to support the foundations of that data. We do have a lot of this really rich metadata going, um, CollectionBuilder includes kind of a default mapping feature. So it’s like there’s a lot of stuff there that I think we could use to get people inspired and then hopefully keep people coming back, maybe even you Bonnie. You know, let’s — let’s figure it out. Let’s do a digital story…

Bonnie Newsom (50:50): I’ll bring my little handheld once I learned how to use it. [laughs]

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (50:52): [laughs] Oh my God. That would be, oh can you, ah that would be so cool, just go into some of these different Crabtree Collections and use an XRF scanner and then being like, “look, these five things, are all, they’re all…

Bonnie Newsom (51:05): The same source.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (51:05): …from the same place.” Yeah, wow. Wow.

Bonnie Newsom (51:07): And they’ve made it all over the place. Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (51:10): That would be so awesome. That’d be so awesome. Um alright. Well I think Jylisa, you just did question six, right? Okay. So Bonnie, this is the last question.

Bonnie Newsom (51:19): Okay.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (51:19): Um what do you wish more people understood about experimental archaeology and how it interacts with cultural preservation as well as cultural appropriation? As well as any other final thoughts you want to close this out.

Bonnie Newsom (51:32): Well, first of all, I think I use experimental archaeology all the time with my students because I think it — it gives them a deeper appreciation and understanding of the material culture that they’re working with. And, um, the — the kind of, uh, negative side of that is, you know again, we go back to people using experimental archaeology to understand Indigenous lifeways or Indigenous technologies, but not giving any of that information back. Um it’s self-serving, um, or can be, it’s not always, of course, but it can be self-serving. And, and I think we need to shift that mindset away from, um, uh, you know I’m doing this for myself ‘cause it’s really cool and I want to learn how to flintknap to, um, I’m doing this because this technology or this skill was, um, uh, taken from Indigenous peoples, and I wanna — I wanna experiment with that so I can, um, give that back, in some way.

Bonnie Newsom (51:50): So I — I guess that would be the answer to that question for me is, um, those two things. I don’t know if I covered everything, but, uh, I do think that, I think — I think the intent is that, the intent that people have that guide those activities is really what may need to shift in some people in order to make it, um, ethical and morally right.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (53:19): Yeah. I think — I think that’s a really well put way of, way of saying that and that it, it encourages people to come in. It’s not a call-out, it’s a call-in and saying…

Bonnie Newsom (53:29): Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (53:29): …um, uh, maybe, push your thinking beyond thinking of this as entertainment, a hobby, um, something that is devoid of meaning. Try to push yourself to understand this in a broader context of meaning. What does it mean for me to be doing this thing, wherever it is that I’m doing it in the time that I’m doing it? And also when I think about that and then realize the people who have been negatively impacted, what is my response to that, that I, you know I address?

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (53:57): And I think for each person that might look very different and how, they you know they’re like, “oh, I should go volunteer at school, or, you know, I should go volunteer with my Boy Scout troop and give them more accurate information about what they’re doing so they don’t talk about stereotypes.” Or you know like, whatever it is that you think that you can do, that it would be better to kind of take up that practice of trying to do something and engaging with it more, um, intentionally and directly and in a way that’s more understanding of, um, I — I don’t know.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (54:24): I just think that that’s sometimes part of the sort of Western, um, one of the view, one of the limitations of a Western viewpoint is we tend to take things out and think of them as separate and isolated and sort of out of context and really pushing to think about interdependence and interrelationality and, um, you know, everything you’re doing is attached to a million other things or so the saying goes. And so it’s like, think about how something that you may have always just thought of is, “oh, it’s just flintknapping, it’s just the thing I do on the weekend with my buds.” It’s like, well, how does that fit into these broader pictures and stories and histories and where you are and what you’re contributing?

Bonnie Newsom (54:59): And social relationships that we have today, you know. Yeah.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (55:06): Well, with that, Bonnie, I think we’ve made it through the questions. So is there anything else we — we should ask, you wish we had asked, or any final thoughts you want to close us out with?

Bonnie Newsom (55:18): Uh I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered a lot of, of good topics and, um, yeah, I — I think it went okay and I’m pretty happy with my answers and I don’t have any other questions that I can think of right off.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (55:33): Awesome. Well, thank you. I thought your answers were fantastic.

Jylisa Kenyon (55:37): Yes.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (55:37): I will be thinking about all of them. I, um, truly, every one of these sessions has been incredible. Um you know talk about self-serving, I have gotten so much out of them. [laughs]

Bonnie Newsom (55:49): [laughs]

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (55:50): I hope the audience gets a fraction of what I feel like me and Jylisa have gotten out of these. Um they’ve been incredibly informing, helpful, inspiring. Um so I just want to thank you that, that’s your positive energy that you’re lending to us and sharing with us. That’s you really showing up and bringing thoughtful and engaged and compassionate answers. And so thank you for sharing that with us. Uh…

Bonnie Newsom (56:12): Oh, thank you. Kci Woliwon, that’s how we say it in Penobscot. Great thanks.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (56:18): Uh thank you. Thank you, Bonnie…

Jylisa Kenyon (56:19): Thank you.

Marco Seiferle-Valencia (56:19): …um this — this has been really wonderful. Uh we’ll go ahead and end the recording now for folks watching. So thanks for tuning in and thanks for being here again, Bonnie.