Leonard Feather Blindfold Tests

Leonard Feather: Blindfold Test, with Leonard Feather. Today's guest, Les McCann.

Leonard Feather: Once again, greetings and modulations. It's our pleasure to bring to you, today, another in a series of interviews designed not only for KNOB, but for future use in DownBeat Magazine.

Leonard Feather: Today, our guest is a gentleman who has caused quite a little controversy in the music world in the last year, who has a style of jazz that might be described as new or possibly as very old or possibly a combination of the two. Whichever it is, everybody's talking about him, and I'm very proud to introduce Les McCann.

Les McCann: Thank you, Leonard. How are you today?

Leonard Feather: Pretty good, Les. I'm ready to take off with the first record. I think you probably know the system we've established here.

Les McCann: Yes.

Leonard Feather: That is one bell for poor, two bells for fair, three for good, four for very good, and if it's even better than that, you can just push the panic button to indicate that all bells are rung.

Les McCann: All right.

Leonard Feather: We'll go ahead with record number one.

Les McCann: All right.

[Plays "Rhythm-a-ning" by Art Pepper, from Gettin' Together, Contemporary Records (1960). Personnel: Art Pepper: alto saxophone; Conte Candoli: trumpet; Wynton Kelly: piano; Paul Chambers: bass; Jimmy Cobb: drums.]

Leonard Feather: Les McCann can't hear me, but this is the Art Pepper Quintet with Conte Candoli on trumpet playing Thelonious Monk's composition Rhythm-a-Ning.

Les McCann: Well, that was kind of a high tension record in a sense. Kind of makes me nervous in spots. But, I think it was Conte Candoli on trumpet, and probably Art Pepper on alto. But, the part I liked was when the piano player started playing. I think that was the best part.

Leonard Feather: Uh-huh.

Les McCann: It could have been Red Garland.

Leonard Feather: Red Garland?

Les McCann: I don't know if that's... I couldn't hardly recognize what it was, but they had a very good feeling there. Kind of that same feeling that The Rhythm Section used to get.

Leonard Feather: Used to get? You mean under what conditions?

Les McCann: When they were The Rhythm Section. They are not together anymore.

Leonard Feather: Which rhythm section do you mean?

Les McCann: I meant Philly Joe and Paul Chambers-

Leonard Feather: Uh-huh. Yeah. I thought that was what you meant. I just wanted-

Les McCann: Yes.

Leonard Feather: ... to clarify for the listeners.

Les McCann: I give the whole... I didn't like the tune at all.

Leonard Feather: You know the tune?

Les McCann: I've heard it before.

Leonard Feather: Uh-huh.

Les McCann: But-

Leonard Feather: Well, let's hear rating musically, and...

Les McCann: Okay. For the band, I give it ..., and for the rhythm section ...

Leonard Feather: All right. Three bells for a Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb, that's who was the rhythm section.

Les McCann: Oh.

Leonard Feather: You were correct 100% on the front line. It was Art Pepper's date and Conte, of course, on trumpet. The tune is an old Thelonious Monk riff called Rhythm-a-Ning.

Les McCann: Yeah, I've heard that before.

Leonard Feather: It's one of his sillier compositions, I would say. Less vital or more trivial.

Les McCann: It makes me jump when I hear it.

Leonard Feather: All right, let's jump away from it and move into record number two.

Les McCann: All right.

[Plays "Bluesology" by Marvin Jenkins, from Marv Jenkins Arrives, Orovox Records (1961). Personnel: Marvin Jenkins: piano; Milt Jackson: composer.]

Leonard Feather: Let's see how Les makes out of this. It's a new pianist by the name of Marv Jenkins on the Orovox Label. The first release on this label, and he's playing Milt Jackson's composition Bluesology.

Les McCann: The tune was Bluesology. I think I heard Bags, or somebody playing that sometime ago.

Leonard Feather: That's right. In fact, Bags wrote it.

Les McCann: Oh, yes.

Leonard Feather: That much I can tell you.

Les McCann: Well, if it's who I think it is, I really want to... I don't think I should completely go on what I feel about it, because this person is a very good friend of mine and...

Leonard Feather: Oh yeah?

Les McCann: This is a Marvin Jenkins I think, and I didn't even know he had a record out. I hated the way the whole record was recorded. The sound was horrible. Marvin is one of the few people I knew, who sets a good feeling when he plays and makes everybody happy. I mean this is what I like in music. He plays all the instruments, tenor and a few other things and gets just as, well good a feeling.

Leonard Feather: What intrigues me is if, let's assume it is Marv Jenkins. I'm not telling you whether it is or not.

Les McCann: Yes.

Leonard Feather: What led you to believe it so immediately?

Les McCann: I know his playing.

Leonard Feather: I mean has he as that distinctive of a style?

Les McCann: Yes, I think so. Yes.

Leonard Feather: The chordal approach?

Les McCann: Yes. That more than any other thing, but he has a way of playing that I can recognize if it's him. If it's somebody else's, that sounded exactly like him.

Leonard Feather: Mm-hmm.

Les McCann: Well, for Marvin, I give it this ...

Leonard Feather: Four bells, and it is Marvin Jenkins.

Les McCann: It is?

Leonard Feather: That was very sharp work on your part, because since he hasn't made any records before, as far as I know.

Les McCann: I know he made one record that he doesn't play like this on. It's this Good Little Man, which is a very nice... This is a single that's out with Barney Kessel.

Leonard Feather: Oh, that's right. He toured with Barney Kessel's group, didn't he?

Les McCann: Yes.

Leonard Feather: Doubling on various things.

Les McCann: Flute and other thing.

Leonard Feather: Yeah, Barney told me about him. As a matter of fact, just around the same time that Gil Fuller brought me this record. This is Gil Fuller's label.

Les McCann: Oh, yeah.

Leonard Feather: It's a new company, Orovox Records.

Les McCann: I think I would do something about that recording.

Leonard Feather: Well, maybe so, but there's some interesting playing in there. I'll say that.

Les McCann: There is. Marvin is a very interesting and funniest guy I've ever met in my life.

Leonard Feather: Is that right? I've got to meet him.

Les McCann: He keeps you laughing all the time.

Leonard Feather: Would you say he belongs in the so-called groove, funk, soul society?

Les McCann: I think he belongs in the groove happiness society.

Leonard Feather: Well, good enough.

Les McCann: Yeah.

Leonard Feather: I don't want to draw you into a debate necessarily on the subject of this whole thing, except that you are so inextricably associated with it, that it would be almost illogical not to bring it up at one point along the way.

Les McCann: That's all right. I understand.

Leonard Feather: How do you feel in the first place about the identification that you've had with this particular school of music? The neo-gospel style, which of course has been prevalent on quite a number of your performances. Although, not all of it by any means.

Les McCann: Well, I don't mind it, but I just don't want to feel that this is the only way we play. As far as people listening to us, I think that this is our only means of communication, because we play other types of music too. I think that this is not only as me, this goes for a lot of musicians. They play other things, other than one. I mean, maybe not as far as... Well, let me say this now. Not too many groups have been put in a position like we have.

Leonard Feather: That's true.

Les McCann: Speaking from us, I think we should be heard from all sides.

Leonard Feather: That certainly is happening with Horace silver. He was the first, I would say, in the East to be associated with the funk. Matter of fact, you know how it all started? Allegedly, Horace did an arrangement on Show Me the Way to Go Home, or on those changes-

Les McCann: Yeah.

Leonard Feather: ... which became The Preacher.

Les McCann: Preacher, yes. Well, see all my life, I haven't heard this kind of music.

Leonard Feather: Oh, sure.

Les McCann: So, what are you going to do?

Leonard Feather: I know it isn't new. That's what I said when I introduced you before. But, the fact is that it's used in this particular context and modern jazz is new.

Les McCann: Well, the reason I want to use it, is because from the feeling that I've heard it throughout the churches and just the groups around the streets that were singing, it was just such a good feeling to me, that if you get this over to the people, I mean you got something going.

Leonard Feather: I know. I understand your feeling. I think it's a very justifiable objective. It's a funny thing that there has been such a violent reaction for, or against it.

Les McCann: Well, I think a lot of the reaction against me is from... I've heard some musicians talk against us. The fact that I'm so young and...

Leonard Feather: Yeah, and they accused you of being synthetic with it.

Les McCann: Yeah. We've come out, and fairly successful. Out here, I know there's a feeling of jealousy going on. But, that's all right. I think that as long as we just keep trying to be honest and-

Leonard Feather: Right. You'll make a-

Les McCann: ... being straight with loving everybody, we're going to get our point across.

Leonard Feather: I'm hip. Let's try record number three.

Les McCann: I'm with you.

[Plays "Our Love Is Here To Stay" by Roland Kirk, from Introducing Roland Kirk, Argo Records (1960). Personnel: Roland Kirk: manzello; William Burton: piano; Don Garrett: bass; Sonny Brown: drums.]

Leonard Feather: This one is going to be a surprise to Les. It's a young fellow named Roland Kirk, and he's playing an instrument known as the manzello, on Our Love Is Here To Stay.

Les McCann: Well, the instrument sounded like a soprano saxophone, but I don't know if it was Steve Lacey or a guy I read about. I think he plays about three or four instruments, or something. I'm not sure, but he projected a lot of feeling. At first the rhythm section weren't quite together, but regardless, and despite that he was saying what he had to say right along.

Leonard Feather: Uh-huh. What do you think of the sound?

Les McCann: Well, I think through him, maybe I could learn to like it, because he seemed to have a lot of control. It was places there, but this is a very hard instrument to play, especially trying to keep it in tune. I don't know if it was a soprano or not, but I liked it, his part.

Leonard Feather: Well, let's hear the rating and then I'll tell you all about it.

Les McCann: Well, all right. If it wasn't a soprano sax, it was an oboe.

Leonard Feather: It sure sounded as much like an oboe as it sounded like a soprano. I'll say that.

Les McCann: Well, I'll say ...

Leonard Feather: Two bells.

Les McCann: Yes. That's for the soloist.

Leonard Feather: This is a fellow named Roland Kirk and your guess, your second guess was right. That's a fellow who plays up to three instruments simultaneously.

Les McCann: Yes. I-

Leonard Feather: It's a weird thing. This instrument that he played Love Is Here To Stay on, is called a manzello. It's sort of in the soprano sax family with trumpet and oboe overtones, I would say.

Les McCann: Yeah.

Leonard Feather: He also plays something called a stritch, S-T-R-I-T-C-H, which is supposed to be like a straight alto saxophone, if you can imagine that. He plays these both at once, and another saxophone-

Les McCann: Yes.

Leonard Feather: ... all out of the same mouth. How he does it with only two hands? I'll never figure it out. He is blind, and he is a Chicago musician. This is his first album on the Argo label. I suspect we'll hear a lot more of him. Not because he's a stunt artist that plays three horns at once, but because as you said, what he does, he does with some projection and feeling.

Les McCann: Yeah. See, nowadays it's so hard for a person to come up... so, you say he plays three at once, and right away he's going to be tagged as somebody who's trying to, a fad, you know?

Leonard Feather: Uh-huh, I know.

Les McCann: Or, they just tag him with a gimmick. I mean these kind of terms should be thrown out.

Leonard Feather: There are some tracks on this album, where he does play more than one instruments at once. But, on this particular tune that I chose to play you, he only plays the one of course. I think obviously there's no gimmick attached to this, except that it's an unusual instrument.

Les McCann: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really liked what he did. I think I should add one more bell to that.

Leonard Feather: All right. Go right ahead.

Les McCann: Okay, ...

Leonard Feather: Thank you. Three bells for Roland Kirk. That has nothing to do with your having had the identification given to you after the rating?

Les McCann: No, no, no, no.

Leonard Feather: All right, thank you. We're talking to Les McCann, and we'll be back with you right after this word from our producer.

Unknown Speaker: One day, this thing will be a reality, but not right now. Not with the scene the way it is. [inaudible], and I thought I had the program pretty well balanced with light things too. There was a lot of that music that was pretentious about the blessed with really great music. But, I was afraid before music, those people shouldn't call absolute music. When I counted, I can't stand them. So, a lot of them, we got to put down a great deal of a lot of the critics because I said...and actually there're just, because nobody can stand unless the guy is a person, is a real connoisseur of music. He cannot stand to sit through a Schoenberg concert, two hours of Schoenberg music, of heavy music.

Leonard Feather: It's really well. The kind of the fans that you attract to them, probably extending themselves to listen to anything beyond jazz music.

Les McCann: We scared people to death with that orchestra. A lot of the city of class people haven't gotten on that thing.

Leonard Feather: Yeah, I've played that to people that don't know. I mean on the Blindfold Test basis, and it causes some bewildering reactions.

Les McCann: Yeah, they don't-

Leonard Feather: They can't figure it out.

Les McCann: There's an awful lot of music in Graettinger's things. First of all, there's no tonality whatsoever. It's a complete lost of tonality, and people, it just shows you how much...

Leonard Feather: It takes a lot of time and a lot of listening.

Les McCann: Sometime back we got to talking about, I wonder what musical sounded like in 500 years. You get excited thinking about what it's going to be like, how if you go to a concert, you will sit in your seat and them perform and you will not to hear any one melody. You'll just hear sheets of musical sound that'll go passing by.

Leonard Feather: Yeah.

Les McCann: It'll be all shapes [inaudible], because of all the tremendous, complex, contrapuntal things that'll be going on. You'll think you feel this sensation. It'll be like smelling perfume. There's this odor of aroma in that one, and be exciting thing.

Leonard Feather: That was a very, I thought, fairly intelligent appraisal of City of Blessed by the classical reviewer in DownBeat.

Les McCann: You think so? I don't remember what he said a lot. There's-

Leonard Feather: Well, it is favorable. But, I mean he reviewed it as if he would be reviewing a regular classical work.

Les McCann: You know where the City of Blessed is appreciated, is in Europe.

Leonard Feather: Really?

Les McCann: Much more than over here.

Leonard Feather: You didn't perform it there?

Les McCann: Oh no, no. We didn't... See, the difference lying between those people and us Americans over here, is they're more used to these distances and...

Leonard Feather: Oh, yes. That's true. They're more ready to accept you on the concept level too.

Les McCann: Well that part of it too is in our favor. They don't look at jazz the way we look it over here. Jazz music over here's a thing that goes on down at Eighth Avenue in a honky tonk.

Leonard Feather: Yeah.

Les McCann: It reflects the life of the honky tonk.

Leonard Feather: Yeah, that's right.

Les McCann: Over there, they don't look at it like that. Jazz is a thing that stands by itself, and it's serious music to the people.

Leonard Feather: Was it probably the biggest impression you've got on the whole tour? It's had an effect of your tremendous reception. The fact that people were paying such intelligent attention to what you would do.

Les McCann: We played this to awful big crowds of people. Then, you go to talk to them, like it'd be a pin drop thing. Maybe some guy would do grunt or something or make a yell, and the whole audience would go, "Shh".

Leonard Feather: Yeah. None of that happened in Carnegie Hall.

Les McCann: Yeah.

Leonard Feather: That was a wonderful experience.

Les McCann: The greatest problem, the biggest worry I have is that we in America, will start to become bogged down with tradition. So, we're getting out where so much about this country is traditional, and tradition does one thing. It stops progress. It's a real poisonous thing. Not that you have to not respect tradition, but you've got to learn where to be lenient with it.

Leonard Feather: Tradition and convention.

Les McCann: Oh, yeah. It's not a new balance that's been going on, but I think America is going to be having trouble in another generation or two.

Leonard Feather: It's having trouble right now. We're in a very reactionary stage of our political and social life and everything else, and that the artistic development has got to be mixed up with that.

Les McCann: Yeah.

Leonard Feather: I think we got enough here. Let me-